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X99 Adaptive Voltage

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    Posted: 18 May 2017 at 10:42pm
I have two Define S cases, so I know them well.

I'm surprised the CPU VRMs are that hot, but as wardog said when using liquid cooling the amount of air movement in the VRM heatsink area is minimal.

I don't have an X99 Taichi board, so don't know if it has a VRM temperature sensor. If it does the monitoring programs that would show it would be HWiNFO64 or AIDA64.

https://www.hwinfo.com/download.php

Imagine all the heat from the CPU cooler's radiator being sent into the PC case. Where does it go? How is it exhausted? Given your VRMs are hot, I assume all of the vents on the top of the case are blocked by their covers. At least remove one of the covers from the top, above the VRM area.

You said one exhaust fan, is that the 140mm Fractal fan at the top, rear of the case? Even with the Fractal fan at 100% speed (no idea how it is configured) it has no chance of exhausting all the heat inside the PC case. Plus it is pulling the heated air up into the VRM area in general. First thing I do with the Define S is replace their junk fan with a fan that actually moves some air. I have a 12V power supply I use to test fans mounted in the PC case during the build process. The Fractal 140mm fan provided with the Define S has zero chance of keeping up with even one of the fans on your EKWB CPU cooler. A fan exhausting air above the VRM area should help. I say exhaust instead of blowing on the VRMs as explained below.

If all of the Define S's vent covers are in place, you have a very positive pressure fan configuration. The three fans on the EKWB cooler are fighting that pressure trying to push air into the case. If you will stay with the CPU cooler blowing air into the PC case, you need to let that air out. I remove all of the PCIe slot covers on the back of the case, which allows air to escape much better than the vents in the covers. PC case cooling is best done by experimentation, so for example remove all of the top vent covers and see what the result is regarding temperatures.

So called "Blower" video cards, unless the enclosure around the video card is completely sealed up (and it isn't) cannot push all their heated air out its rear vent. The vent is too small. So heat from the video card is dumped into the PC case. Again, where does it go?

I wonder what the mother board temperature reading is? That will also give you a great idea of the case ventilation. If it's over 30簞 C, heat is stagnating in the case.

Yes, the UEFI will automatically disable some of the C States when you increase the CPU multiplier. But that is not permanent, you simply reset them to enabled and they'll stay enabled. Just enable C1E and C6, and leave C3 disabled.

Fan speed settings may also be changed when an OC is applied. Again, not permanent. Are you creating a custom fan/pump speed profiles in HW Monitoring?

Setting offset voltage must be done by experimentation. "Safe" can only be verified by monitoring the VCore in actual use. Select Offset and leave the Offset voltage value on Auto, and see what you get starting a stress test. You don't need to run it for long, it will reach its max value quickly. All CPUs are different, even of the same model, a simple recipe for setting the exact voltage does not exist. I would say a VCore of 1.3V is the safe limit for your processor. If stress testing at 4.4GHz fails, the VCCIN/CPU Input can be increased to 1.9V, as it must be at least 0.6V above the max VCore.

VCCSA is System Agent.

CPU IO is VCCIO.

How did you feel about the CPU cooler water block mounting? How much TIM did you use? Too much is usually the situation, a minimal amount is best, but then even coverage becomes the challenge. CPU Package temperature consistently reads higher than the core temperatures. You never said what you are using to monitor the CPU temperature in Windows.

What version of Windows are you using? Windows 10 has changed the Advanced Power Plan Processor power management options, depending on the version/updates you have.

You clearly have work to do with the PC case cooling, and part of it might be the pump and fan speed configuration. High performance and quiet is difficult to achieve regardless of the CPU cooler. The challenge with liquid cooling is radiator configuration, intake or exhaust, and getting air into and out of the PC case. You must have both, not just one or the other. Compensating for the lack of air movement in the CPU area with liquid cooling is the main drawback of liquid cooling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coccosoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by wardog wardog wrote:

Originally posted by coccosoids coccosoids wrote:

What can I do to put some more steam into this thread? :)


Put a pot of water to boil on the VRMs Tongue


I did! And now I feel like Thomas the tank engine!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wardog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 5:13am
Originally posted by coccosoids coccosoids wrote:

What can I do to put some more steam into this thread? :)


Put a pot of water to boil on the VRMs Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wardog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 5:12am
Originally posted by coccosoids coccosoids wrote:

Almost forgot to mention: the VRM gets extremely hot during stress testing - how normal is this and is there a temp sensor for that that I can check? I cannot even touch it for more than an instant (it's burning basically).

What I would like to do now:


First thing you need to do is place a fan blowing over the VRMs !


Since you're using water cooling, any airflow that would have blown over the VRMs from a std HS/F is no more.

When water cooling it is a MUST that airflow over the VRMs be supplied by an aux fan. Without an aux fan the VRMs will get scalding hot!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coccosoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2017 at 10:26pm
What can I do to put some more steam into this thread? :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coccosoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

What voltage mode are you using now? Fixed at 1.24V?
Your board's UEFI has Auto/Adaptive, Fixed and Offset for VCore options, correct?

Your second question is about reducing your current idle CPU temperature of ~46簞 C. Now our
questions begin, sorry to say, since you've given us no details about your PC.

What CPU cooler are you using?
What PC case model are you using, and what is the case fans number and configuration?
What VCore mode are you using now? Do you have SpeedStep and C States enabled or disabled?

What Windows Power Plan do you use?
What program(s) do you use to monitor CPU/core temperatures?

What model of video card do you use? Important only because of the way it exhausts it heat.
A very general, basic  description of your usage of the PC might help.

Do you prefer not to use CPU power saving options, and have the processor operating at 4.4GHz constantly?


A very-very big thank you, parsec! Below a few more details on my build...

Setup:

Fractal Define S / 1 case fan as rear exhaust
EKWB S360 water cooling starter kit / 360 rad with 3 fans in pull config mounted in front (fans pull air inside case)
1x 1070 FE blower (blows air out the back)

5960x / 44x core ratio / 39x cache ratio / BCLK 100
VCCIN fixed 1.85v (this is CPU Input Voltage on my Taichi board)
Core voltage override 1.24v
Cache voltage override 1.175 - 1.2v (still experimenting with this settings)
System Agent offset +0.3v - +0.35v (pretty sure this is VCCSA on most other boards) for a value of ~1.2v
CPU IO auto (this should be VCCIO I believe, but again a bit confusing, would like to know)
LLC Level 3
Turboboost enabled
Speedstep disabled
C states disabled

DRAM voltage 1.36v
DRAM clock 3000

Most other settings at default.

My idle temps are also a bit high because the fans on the rad are pretty loud and I have them at 40% or something before the temp sensors hit 50C. In stress testing temps don't usually go above 70, 74C maybe, with room temps at about 24C.
(another thing I find confusing on this board in particular (X99 Taichi) is that for the water pump the settings are not straight forward in Fan-tastic Tuning - but I will tackle that later with pump speed etc)

Almost forgot to mention: the VRM gets extremely hot during stress testing - how normal is this and is there a temp sensor for that that I can check? I cannot even touch it for more than an instant (it's burning basically).

What I would like to do now: come up with some guidelines on how to correctly AND safely configure offset voltages in the Asrock uefi- in tandem with EIST and C states (if needed) as some of them are turned off automatically once you change cpu settings.

Currently benching with high performance power plan on, this build will be used as a workstation for a while, with some gpu / cpu rendering - but still building on that. No preference on power savings per se, other than maybe have idle voltages drop a little for ambiance reasons (noise, and secondly: room temps).


Edited by coccosoids - 16 May 2017 at 5:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote parsec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by coccosoids coccosoids wrote:

User of X99 Taichi from Asrock.

I will say straight up that the bios in this Asrock board has very poor usability for me, which I would not have expected if you consider how beautiful this board is on the outside.
So given that - are there any guides on how to configure adaptive voltage / offsets in the Taichi bios? Can anyone share a basic step by step guide?


Originally posted by coccosoids coccosoids wrote:

I'll probably ask him privately if he would care to answer, but I will not do so until his holiday is over.
Thank you though.

To whom it may concern: on a 5960x at 1.24v, 4400Mhz with fans at 40% the idle temperature sits at ~46 degrees. Package. I would very much try to lower it at 30 something if at all possible.

Many thanks.


It seems you know what you are doing more so than your first post implies. That's a great OC at a low voltage for an i7-5960X, almost 1GHz above the stock Turbo speed of 3.5GHz.

What voltage mode are you using now? Fixed at 1.24V?

Your board's UEFI has Auto/Adaptive, Fixed and Offset for VCore options, correct?

Adaptive is Intel's automatically controlled VCore mode. The processor selects the voltage it "decides" it needs, based upon its VID table and other logic programmed into the processor. The UEFI itself has a pre-programmed base Adaptive voltage, liberally chosen to allow for the "silicon lottery" affect, the difference in a processor's ability to over clock, since they are not all the same in that regard.

Adaptive mode will result in the highest VCore values occurring of any mode, particularly during CPU stress testing and when AVX2 instructions are executed during a stress test. Regardless of the VCore value chosen with Adaptive mode, that VCore value will NOT be the maximum applied to the processor. If you've tried using Adaptive, you must have seen the VCore exceed the VCore value you entered, or if using Auto, the VCore will be quite high under higher CPU load circumstances. That is completely normal for Adaptive mode, and out of our control.

Adaptive voltage mode cannot be configured much at all by the user, and is generally dismissed for use when over clocking, due to the high VCore values it will produce, which are usually not necessary. The use of CPU power saving options like SpeedStep and C States cause changes in the VCore value under processor low load and idle conditions. Adaptive voltage lends itself more to saving power under low CPU load conditions.

All Intel i7-5000 series HEDT CPUs are Haswell architecture processors, which have the VCore voltage regulators as part of the processor itself. The board's CPU VRM stage simply supplies the voltage and current the processor requests, and does not itself set the VCore value. The UEFI can control what the internal voltage regulators produce using Fixed and Offset voltage modes.

 Your second question is about reducing your current idle CPU temperature of ~46簞 C. Now our questions begin, sorry to say, since you've given us no details about your PC.

What CPU cooler are you using?

What PC case model are you using, and what is the case fans number and configuration?

What VCore mode are you using now? Do you have SpeedStep and C States enabled or disabled?

What Windows Power Plan do you use?

What program(s) do you use to monitor CPU/core temperatures?

What model of video card do you use? Important only because of the way it exhausts it heat.

A very general, basic  description of your usage of the PC might help.

Do you prefer not to use CPU power saving options, and have the processor operating at 4.4GHz constantly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote parsec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by coccosoids coccosoids wrote:

User of X99 Taichi from Asrock.

I will say straight up that the bios in this Asrock board has very poor usability for me, which I would not have expected if you consider how beautiful this board is on the outside.
So given that - are there any guides on how to configure adaptive voltage / offsets in the Taichi bios? Can anyone share a basic step by step guide?


Before you criticize ASRock for (apparently) not providing a beginners guide for configuring the VCore voltage options, consider this: Does Intel, the designer and manufacture of the processor, and creator of the modes/methods of controlling the voltages applied to the processor, provide a guide or instructions about doing that? The answer is, no they don't.

You have brought up a point that has been lost to me after all the years I've been building PCs. It's something I have just accepted as the norm, the simple reality of the situation that is accepted by PC builders. While Intel and AMD design the methods that processor voltages are controlled in the UEFI/BIOS, and mother board manufactures simply implement them from information provided to them from the processor manufactures, where and how is the information about using the methods provided to PC builders?

The main source of that information is literally created by the PC builders themselves, from experimentation and their experience with other PCs they've used in the past. I cannot point you to a single guide provided by Intel that would answer your questions. That applies to any Intel processor generation. Why that is true, and accepted by PC builders, is a mystery.

The ultimate irony of this situation is the Intel design document for the processor voltage regulator design that is issued for one or more related processor generations, is a proprietary document that is not released to the public. Mother board manufactures must sign a non-disclosure agreement that they will not provide that document to the public. Regardless, the majority of its contents would be beyond the understanding of most people.

The guides created by PC builders, and occasionally by someone related to a mother board manufacture, are really about how to over clock a processor. They also are not written as a basic guide about what each option does and how it works.

Please understand that "explaining what the settings do" in any meaningful way would make the manual three times the size it is now. I certainly agree that the manuals provided by any mother board manufacture do not provide detailed explanations of each option. That is yet another norm that has been that way as long as I've been building PCs.

New PC builders tend to put the responsibility of their education onto the mother board manufacture. While that may seem reasonable, the mother board is only one part of many that makes up a PC. Why doesn't Intel and AMD provide a manual with their processors describing how to configure processor voltages and option settings? Why don't we as customers expect or require that from them?

End of my editorial, I'll address your question next.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coccosoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by wardog wardog wrote:

Meh, please don't PM us. The info you seek should be public for all to read.




Should be, but it isn't. Asrock should at least explain what the settings do in their manual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wardog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:03am
Meh, please don't PM us. The info you seek should be public for all to read.


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