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High Voltage on Auto Clock

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VUMeter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VUMeter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 5:13am
Originally posted by zlobster zlobster wrote:


If this will stir your pot, then here comes the crazies part - with everything left @ auto I get the high Vcore when IDLING! When loaded moderately to heavily, CPU Vcore was dropping to normal operating ranges, i.e. 1.18-1.22V For whatever the reason(s) voltage regulating circuity was overshooting severely. Go figure!

As for the resets - I've done many. I've tried various combinations of even seemingly unrelated settings, only to see the same thing over and over again.

If I ran Prime95 with all cores and threads, my Auto voltage went to vCore of 1.20v.  However, it's when running on single or two cores (or threads) only with Prime95 is when the vCore really shot up.

We cant continue discussion on a thread I created a while ago f you like, rather than continue on this, although it does seem relevant.
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6185

The main point for me is that temps were not bad under auto or under fixed voltage mode.
This is interesting:
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ryzen-strictly-technical.2500572/

"Understanding the voltages specified for the standard PStates can be confusing as well. That's because in the normal operating mode (i.e. "non-OC") the SMU controls the voltages automatically through the voltage controllers.

For example, the P0 PState might specify 1.37500V voltage, while the actual effective voltage during the residency in this state is 1.26250V or slightly higher. This is not a glitch, but the normal operation of the CPU. Basically, the voltage specified in the MSR is just the upper limit and the SMU will automatically add a dynamic negative offset to this value, reducing the actual effective voltage. The amount of the negative offset varies depending on load and the temperature. For the tested sample the offsets were -120mV & -144mV for the two highest base PStates (3.6 & 3.2GHz).

When the "OC Mode" is activated the SMU will disable the voltage controllers, which among other things disables the automatic voltage offsets. This can create an illusion that the power consumption is heavily increasing due to the use of "OC Mode". While technically it is accurate, it is more of a consequence than the actual reason. A vast majority of the increased power consumption comes from the now disabled automatic negative voltage offsets, which causes the actual CPU voltage to increase anything between 50 and 150mV. Because of this behavior, it is advised that the user doesn't increase the CPU voltage right away (when overclocking), but only upon actual demand (as usual)."

Looks like the on chip power controller does some interesting this with voltage offsets that make it hard to measure.  If you are havinga hard time with temperatures though, that's a cause for concern.  I am basing my assumption on low temps = a good time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zlobster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 5:27am
Originally posted by VUMeter VUMeter wrote:

If I ran Prime95 with all cores and threads, my Auto voltage went to vCore of 1.20v.  However, it's when running on single or two cores (or threads) only with Prime95 is when the vCore really shot up.

Same here. Only that I was getting huge spikes on idle as well. Talking about ~1.58V (!)

Originally posted by VUMeter VUMeter wrote:

We cant continue discussion on a thread I created a while ago f you like, rather than continue on this, although it does seem relevant.
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp%3FTID=6185

The main point for me is that temps were not bad under auto or under fixed voltage mode.
This is interesting:
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ryzen-strictly-technical.2500572/
It's nearly 2018! Who copies and pastes URLs these days?!?!Cry

Originally posted by VUMeter VUMeter wrote:

Looks like the on chip power controller does some interesting this with voltage offsets that make it hard to measure.

You bet!

Originally posted by VUMeter VUMeter wrote:

If you are havinga hard time with temperatures though, that's a cause for concern.  I am basing my assumption on low temps = a good time.

When I was using all-autos my idle was ~52C! Not talking +20 offset here. That is w/ a h115i with 2 rad-optimized 140mm Noctuas... N.B. after P3.10; with P3.00 things was less crazy but still pretty crazy.

EDIT: Now I remembered The Stilt's writings. Dude's simply a category of his own. I wonder if ASRock engineers/FW developers knew the same stuff he knew, before designing the board? LOL


Edited by zlobster - 14 Dec 2017 at 5:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VUMeter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 6:04am
Why can't this place let you link another thread in the same damn forum???

OK, here goes:
http
://
forum.asrock.com
/forum_posts.asp?TID=6185

OK, it just replaces ? with %3F, neat, helpful.

Idle 52簞C !?!  Yeah, that would make me (1) turn off immediately (2) take off CPU cooler (3) clean of thermal compound (4) cry (5) think of who I could call to do it for me.

However, I'll assume you did actually apply the CPU correctly.  First time builder here, I put on an NH-U14s, and that was nerve wracking!  Thermal compound application didn't fill me with confidence (though tests showing even a 'smiley face' pattern works OK enough). Damn screws wouldn't get purchase on the threaded mounting brackets until I put some force onto them, but it's kinda scary.

The UEFI/BIOS temp is Tctrl on P3.00 and T-socket (?) on versions below.  Either way the Temp reported in BIOS isn't accurately reflecting what is going on, which makes setting fan speeds a pain!

That's seems like there is something very messed up to be getting idle temps that high though.
It's Winter here in, perpetually dreary, England and we don't have our heating on all day, only when it's really cold.  I had a small window open too, so it was about 10-12 簞C in the room and the idle temp Tdie was 19.8 簞C.  The Zotac Mini 1070 with fans at 30% was 24 簞C!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote datonyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 6:10am
Originally posted by zlobster zlobster wrote:

I don't really care about the current voltage. My issue is that with high Vcore I get high idle temp as well.

My 3.10 Sapphire Boost is also broken, so maybe it's just a mess on my side?

All this is a huge driver for my rant in my other post about to love for the Taichi. I was hoping for a fast, working and stable UEFI to go with a fresh install of Win 10 FCU and 'Adrenalin'... Wishful thinking.

PERSONAL THOUGHTS: I've always used ASUS mobos and I've never had any issues with them. Reading all the recent praise about ASRock and their mobos I decided to give them a try. Honestly, the X370 Taichi looks very sturdy, but the entire FW/SW support from ASRock looks like it comes from some garage shop in Taiwan. I mean, look at the friggin' English in their software and manuals. I'm not a native English speaker but at least I proof read.


you should care about the current

that is what will make the heat
understand

current and voltage are very different

you can have high volts and produce low heat as long as the amps (current) is low

as an example

turn you car over on the starter motor and feel the heat in the thick battery cable

that is 12v but 300+ amps

now hold onto the ht leads to the spark plugs

they have many many thousands of volts but absolutely miniscule amps they will be stone cold


so please dont be so dismissive
if you dont understand the basics of ohms law and amps vs volts ,you wont get any closer to solving your issues and understanding why things do what

heat comes from current not from volts
[url=https://valid.x86.fr/jpg250][/url]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yodivanbaped Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 11:19am
Originally posted by datonyb datonyb wrote:

at stock and auto volts they do indeed go over 1.5 volts

try manually setting all cores to 3.8 ghz and cpu volts to 1.4

this should be nigh on certainly stable for any 1600x

you can then try slowly and gradually to reduce the volts down to 1.35 or maybe a little lower


Just fyi I previously use R3 1300X on the same board and barely went to 3.8Ghz (sometimes my board failed to post and I need to press the restart button) thats why I'll just put my R5 1600X on auto.

I'll try to manually put my clockspeed and voltage later when I'm home.

One question, does this high voltage has something to do with XFR? Another fyi, I have Cool n Quiet disabled, haven't try to enable it (maybe I should) because I disabled it right after I install then R5 1600X...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zlobster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by datonyb datonyb wrote:



you should care about the current

that is what will make the heat
understand

current and voltage are very different


Hmm, I believe my wording ('current voltage') mislead you. Before you continue, let me tell you I have a MSc in electrical engineering. I'd love to chat about electricity and physics, although not here.

Otherwise you're right. One of the main things that leads to heat in conductors is the current. Other one being resistance. Joule's first law.

Naturally, increasing the voltage also increases the current -> hence increase in heat generation as well. Let's skip the nitty-gritty details about semiconductors and transients.

EDIT: syntax




Edited by zlobster - 14 Dec 2017 at 7:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zlobster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 7:35pm
Reddit and The Stilt have some interesting info regarding all this. It was posted in some other threads here.

I'll try to engage The Stilt and see if he can shed some real insights on what's really going on, and how to optimally set the voltages.

P.S. when transitioning from OC MODE to MANUAL one should always go for NEGATIVE voltage offsets first!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VUMeter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2017 at 2:16am
Originally posted by yodivanbaped yodivanbaped wrote:

...
One question, does this high voltage has something to do with XFR? Another fyi, I have Cool n Quiet disabled, haven't try to enable it (maybe I should) because I disabled it right after I install then R5 1600X...

From what I am reading, yes exactly.

The system management unit (SMU) handles distribution of voltages on the chip to all of the different areas.  It controls thermal throttling and other fancy things.  It also controls how and when and even if XFR is going to work at all.  If you change the frequency of the chip (not sure if both increase 'overclock' and decrease 'underclock' or just increase) it disables the XFR function.  For this reason it makes sense for those who overclock to at least get the same all-core overclock as their XFR single core speed, else they are at a single threaded speed penalty.

It would also seem that the SMU is a secretive box of tricks.  It doesn't seem to feed much info out to the system (or monitoring applications) about it's inner workings.  Sure there are some voltage and amperage data sensors, but they don't tell the whole truth.
From what I read from reputable sources, voltage data reported from the CPU is actually 100-150mV (0.1-0.15v) higher than is actually being distributed internally.

Now, if one sets the Motherboard voltage to a fixed amount, then the CPU may well request more (VID) but it ain't getting it.  On my chip at least 1.30v, or maybe lower, will happily support all of the CPU stock functionality including multi- and single- core XFR boosting.
Of course, there could be the odd 'dud' chip that really won't boost to single-core XFR frequencies unless it gets ~1.4v (or >1.5v supplied to the SMU), which is why all of the chips jump up to this seemingly rather drastically high voltage.

I have sent AMD Technical an email, whether I'll get a suitable reply is another question, but hopefully I'll get a definitive answer.

Why there isn't the option to control the max vCore ceiling for XFR whilst allowing for vCore reduction when idle, I don't know.  What I am going to do shortly is to play a bit more with P-states and offsets and see if I cannot coax the behaviour that I desire:

All cores idle < 1v / ~0.80v
All cores maxed ~1.20v
Single core maxed 1.30v

I have no want to keep putting 1.4-1.5v into the chip when it completely doesn't need it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zlobster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2017 at 3:06am
Or maybe, I don't know, ASRock fix this? Yin Yang

I know the X370 Taichi is made for OC but can't users just enjoy normal behavior out of the box?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VUMeter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2017 at 4:07am
"Normal behaviour out of the box" - well that is exactly what I am experiencing, if what I read is correct.  Ryzen 7 chips (and maybe others) boost their drawn vCore when XFR is engaged because the SMU pulls more.  That's the way it is, it is nothing to do with the motherboard, but all to do with the actual chip SMU architecture.

My idle temps are low, my chips boosts to 3.9GHz single and 3.5GHz all core/all thread.  This is correct behaviour.  When it boosts XFR single core it pulls almost 1.5v.  That's by design, not changeable as it's written into the SMU of the chip.

@Zlobster directly: You have something wrong somewhere that is not normal and that is creating higher than normal idle temps.  What that is I don't know and can't even begin to work out without 'playing' with it directly.

Windows is being lied to about things too.  The monitoring software is being told the frequency drops to 2000MHz on a 1700X and that's not true, the base frequency is 2200MHz (22x multiplier).  AMD hasn't said a lot but they have said Windows isn't fast enough to respond to things that the chip is doing, that or they just ain't bothering to report to the OS because the SMU is doing it.

OK, what I have just finished playing with and my results:

0 Default 1700X, all volts on auto.
Idle ~0.869v @ 2200MHz
All core ~1.2v @ 3500MHz
Single core ~1.45v @ 3900MHz

1 Disable CPB (Core Performance Boost / XFR), P-State 0 1.30v (28) @ 3400MHz, everything else stock or auto.
Idle ~0.869v @ 2200MHz
All core ~1.150v @ 3400MHz (100MHz sslow, no XFR boost)
Single core ~1.140 @ 3400MHz (500MHz slow, no XFR)

2 Enable CPB, P-state 0 1.30v @ 3400MHz, all else stock or auto (1-above with CPB enabled).
Idle ~0.869v @ 2200MHz
All core ~1.2v @ 3500MHz
Single core ~1.45v @ 3900MHz

So, I'll try to explain my findings:
Disabling CPB (XFR) means that the chip operates at it's basic multiplier speeds without turbos.  Whilst it's not a massive hit for all-core performance (drops 100MHz on a 1700X), the single-core performance takes a huge 500MHz hit.  But because 3400MHz is easily achievable on all cores, it's gonna be even easier on just one core, hence the lower vCore.

However, unless the user is gonna overclock all cores to 3900MHz or has a specific multi-core reason, disabling CPB (XFR) seems like a bad move on an -X chip.  Single core performance suffers too much.

Unfortunately we do not have control over the SMU on the chip.  So we cannot control the vCore ceiling when XFR boost is happening.  We can forcibly lock the motherboard to provide a static amount of volts, but this doesn't seem to drop down when reducing load, it stays static always.

I'd like access to the ghost P-states of XFR, but these are dealt with by the SMU on chip and not for the user to mes with.  P0 is not XFR, it is the maximum all core state.  If the P0 frequency is changed then XFR is disabled.  If P0 stays at stock frequency then the SMU is free to allow XFR boosts on all or some cores as it sees fit, and to provide whatever voltage internally that it decides too.

Now, it could be true that when manually specifying volts, the reported value in monitoring software is fairly accurate.  The SMU may have to just deal with what is available.  But when the motherboard voltage is auto, the SMU can pull more but maybe internally distribute less.

I am not a fan of this hidden working stuff, I like to see what is the real deal.  It's like these temperature offsets that aren't already programmed into the chips, just like on my old Core 2 Duo.

Sorry if this is moving off topic a bit from the original posters question.  I do hope some of it is relevant to the question though.
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