Fatal1ty K6+ BSOD - Need some fresh ideas
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URL: https://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2585
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Topic: Fatal1ty K6+ BSOD - Need some fresh ideas
Posted By: heapson
Subject: Fatal1ty K6+ BSOD - Need some fresh ideas
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 11:17am
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I have a self built system misbehaving badly and need to determine the
cause of the issue so I can replace something. I'm convinced it's a
hardware or BIOS issue. I've had 136 Blue Screens on the main build.
I've also had 39 blue screens on a clean installation with a different
hard drive over the course of my adventure. I highly suspect motherboard or RAM compatibility but I'm not sure. The blue screens occur more frequently when copying large files or running long hard drive diagnostics such as Seatools long generic or chkdsk /r. System:
Things I've tried:
So, can anyone suggest another plan of attack or something I've missed like a checkbox that says "behave"! I'm really at the end of ideas. I'm happy to replace anything but I need to work out what I need to replace. I now have time to work on this 100% so I'll keep plugging away and update this thread as I try suggestions from you guys. Cheers. Mick. |
Replies:
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 11:36am
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I forgot to mention anything about the actual blue screens. I had another one just as I was about to post the first version of this reply so 137 now! Almost all are KERNEL_SECURITY_CHECK_FAILURE (139) in ntoskrnl.exe+142760 The process name varies and appears to be fairly random. I haven't analysed the minidumps on the fresh installation. I might have a look at those now and post back. The very first blue screen on that one before I'd installed all the drivers from the ASRock site was BAD_POOL_HEADER. |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 1:22pm
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The fresh Windows 10 installation is on a Sata SSD drive so I'll call that Sata SSD and my original installation is on my M2 SSD. The Sata SSD seems to be way less stable than it used to be, even with all other drives disconnected and the M2 drive removed. I tried to analyse the dump files but it kept crashing. It's up to 49 blue screens now. The crashes seem to be much more random on that Sata SSD drive than on the M2 SSD drive. I rebooted back to my M2 SSD and had a quick look at the crashes from both installations. All of the crashes without a bug check string in the images are KERNEL_SECURITY_CHECK_FAILURE. Another thing I've tried but haven't mentioned is manually setting the memory timings, at the stock 2133MHz 15.15.15.36 1.2v and at the rated but overclocked 3200MHz 16.18.18.36 1.35v. It doesn't change things. The XMP profile still seems to be the most stable. M2 SSD (Original installation, which used to be stable)  Sata SSD, which has never been stable even with a fresh installation  |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 1:26pm
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Welcome to the forums. First up, good job so far on the troubleshooting. I don't see any mention of reseating the CPU and checking for bent pins. The issues you describe seem pretty random which would incline me to believe you have an issue with data corruption, likely being caused by the RAM or memory controller. I would try using some different RAM from the support list, generally Kingston and G-Skill work well with ASRock boards from what I have seen. If you have not already you should also perform a full CMOS clear. ------------- 
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 1:38pm
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Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't tried either of those but I have flashed the BIOS back to 1.8, the original one it came with, and then back to 2.6 when it didn't help. I'll try a full CMOS reset. It has a button but I'll have to look up how it works. The system was stable for the first two months of the year. I can't see how the CPU could be seated incorrectly or have bent pins. I'm reluctant to change anything. The CPU temperature is about 28C while idle and rarely gets above 60C. Do you really think I should reseat it? I do have thermal paste but it's currently using the original Corsair thermal compound. |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 1:44pm
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If it was memory corruption or bad RAM, wouldn't Memtest show this? It ran last weekend while I was away for 34 hours with zero errors or crashes. Memtest does show different timings. I can't explain that but it displays 19.15.15.31 even when manually configured in the BIOS. I live remote and to buy any components like RAM takes a week. I want to ensure I buy the right piece of the puzzle. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 1:52pm
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Fair enough. We have seen a lot of issues with Skylake and RAM compatibility issues and random corruption related BSODs in the OS quite often stem from the RAM/memory subsystem. In that case I would start by removing the CPU and visually inspecting both it and the socket. Make sure the CPU isn't warped and that there are no bent pins in the socket. Once you have it all reseated clear CMOS via the http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=630&title=how-to-clear-cmos-via-battery-removal" rel="nofollow - battery removal method then boot into the OS with factory defaults (no changes made in UEFI). If that does not resolve the issue then you should try running some CPU stress tests to determine if the CPU (memory controller) hasn't gone bad. I would recommend using Intel Burn in Test (IBT) for 10 passes then Prime 95 with standard settings for 6 - 8 hours. I would not risk updating BIOS while the system is unstable so lets leave that as a last resort. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:03pm
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Removed the CPU, cleaned the thermal compound, checked for warping and bent pins, removed the CMOS battery for 30 minutes and set the clear CMOS jumpers, re-seated the CPU with Arctic Silver thermal compound. Booted. Nothing. Reset the CMOS jumpers and booted. Still nothing. Removed the power cable from the motherboard and reconnected. Booted fine. Loaded the default UEFI and set the clock. Booted to my Sata SSD. IE crashed almost immediately and then nothing would open or respond, not even CTRL + ESC. Computer wouldn't restart or turn off. Then it blue screened before I could power it down manually. This one was PAGE_FAULT_IN_NON_PAGED_AREA. Reloaded default UEFI settings, booted to my M2 SSD. Posted this. I'll try the stress tests you recommend. |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:05pm
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Literally less than a second after posting that, KERNEL_SECURITY_CHECK_FAILURE, the standard one for this particular installation. I'll try loading the XMP memory profile and see if I can get the stress tests to run. It seems to be the most stable configuration for some reason. Thanks again for your time and suggestions. Very much appreciated. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:54pm
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The failure to boot after a CMOS clear happens sometimes, especially if the PSU was still holding a charge at the time the jumper was set to clear. Removing the power from the board allows the board to clear any residual charge it may be holding and subsequently reset the power safety features. The same effect could have been achieved by leaving the system powered off (at the wall) for 20mins - 1 hour (depending on the quality of the PSU). There is clearly data corruption occurring but at this point I can't tell you if it is the CPU, RAM or motherboard, or some combination thereof that are at fault. Is it at all possible for you to test another power supply with the system? That is another major potential candidate for BSODs. I should have mentioned that at the start. The first step in any kind of hardware troubleshooting should always be trying another PSU. You shouldn't need an overly powerful one to test with just the CPU, RAM, SSD and motherboard so long as it has all the requisite power connectors for the system. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 6:51am
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Intel Burn in Test (IBT) for 10 passes completed no problem. Kicked off Prime 95 with standard settings last night. All eight worker threads reported zero errors with slightly varying numbers of tests over 13 hours. "Torture Test completed 352 tests in 13 hours, 7 minutes - 0 errors, 0 warnings."CPU temp reached a maximum of 80C during the entire 13 hours. I don't have another PSU to try and it is one of the suspect components as it came from my previous computer but it's less than six months old and it's not an el' cheapo PSU. The tests above and Memtest suggest to me, the PSU, the CPU and the RAM are all good. Handbrake encodes have run overnight successfully several times recently too. They've also crashed on the first item in the queue. I'm starting to lean towards a faulty Sata controller or bus although I have tried isolating both the ASMedia and Intel Sata ports. Sata analysis points
I'm going to run a chkdsk /r on a USB external 2TB drive and see if it completes. I'm about a day away from ordering a new motherboard. I'm nearly prepared to take the gamble. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 11:32am
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I am inclined to agree about the CPU and RAM not being the issue at this point. Given that the system was stable for 2 months I would lean toward either the motherboard or PSU as the guilty culprits. The last thing I would try seeing as you have no spare PSU to test with is reinstall your graphics card and any other peripherals you have that draw power and see if your BSOD issues get worse. If they do then the PSU may be the cause, if not then I would go ahead and RMA the motherboard. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 12:34pm
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I've been running stable all day using my M2 SSD installation. I've been constantly copying huge numbers of files back and forth between USB drives and onto the M2 drive. A chkdsk /r is still churning away on a 2TB USB drive. These things were pretty much guaranteed to blue screen when any of my Sata drives were involved. All Sata drives are currently disconnected. I can't remember if I've experienced a blue screen on this installation with all Sata drives disconnected. I have tested disconnecting drives but it was on the Sata SSD installation so the system drive was still connected. I'll try adding all the components back to load the PSU but I'm pretty convinced it's caused by having any Sata drive connected on any port either ASMedia or Intel. I have no idea how this could be occurring but I think it points to the motherboard. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 7:24pm
Good luck  -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 7:36am
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I'm no closer to resolving this. It does seem to be completely stable without any Sata drives connected but that isn't very practical. The chkdsk /r on the 2TB USB drive completed no problem. The Sata SSD installation continues to blue screen on any Sata port intermittently although not as often with no other Sata drives connected. The M2 SSD stayed up overnight with all Sata drives powered on but not connected to the board and both the GPU and WiFi PCI cards installed. This was to load the PSU. I really don't think it's a PSU issue but I've ordered a new one so I can eliminate the possibility. I really don't think it's a memory issue but I have read a really long thread detailing issues with my specific memory modules so I've ordered some G.Skill (F4-3200C16Q-32GVKB). Corsair Vengeance CMK16GX4M2B3200C16 memory issues. http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=149795" rel="nofollow - http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=149795 I've had enough of blue screens for the moment so I'll shut this thing down for a week while the new components arrive and then report back. Thanks again for your suggestions and for listening. My sanity is rapidly disappearing. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 12:33pm
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At this point I would RMA the motherboard. Looking at all your troubleshooting results now that you have loaded the PSU a little more without issue I have to agree with your assumption that the SATA controllers (likely a component common to both) have gone faulty. Even if it is not the board at fault an RMA won't hurt anything and will ultimately give you peace of mind once you get the system back together. I guess you could wait for the new components to arrive but I suspect the issues will likely persist. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 5:20pm
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I agree. I managed to change my order to add a new motherboard and cancel the PSU. I kept the RAM as I'm still a little suspicious of the changes in behaviour of the blue screens when alternating between perfectly valid RAM timing configurations. Default UEFI settings or manual timings cause more frequent crashes but loading the XMP overclocked configuration produces a much more stable computer. I'll finish my analysis when the order arrives and post an update in a week or two. Fingers crossed it's RAM or Motherboard. I'm not sure I can cope with any more of these adventures. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 5:36pm
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Best of luck to you. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 3:02pm
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I can confirm it wasn't memory. I installed a single stick of supported G.Skills RAM and it still blue screened while copying files between two Sata drives. Both drives are known to be good. I also tried different Sata and power cables with a single known good Sata drive connected. The system blue screened while copying files to this drive on both the Intel and ASMedia ports. It's been running stable all week with zero sata drives connected while I waited for RAM and a new motherboard. I'll go ahead and install the new motherboard and update this post in a few days and again in a few weeks. After 182 blue screens on this installation, I'm well overdue a sanity refresh. Fingers crossed! |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 1:48pm
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Well, it's been four days on a new motherboard without a single blue screen. Happy days! All my Sata drives have passed the Seatools long generic test and chkdsk /r without issue. I've copied terabytes of data between drives simultaneously without any hiccups. The only thing I swapped was the motherboard. Even the two Windows installations are unchanged with just a few driver installs to match the new motherboard. Every single component is identical, including cables, CPU, PSU, GPU, PCI cards, case, memory, M2 drive, SSD drive, standard hard drives, optical drives, keyboard, mouse, speakers, webcam and monitor. File transfers between Sata drives with the new motherboard are about five times faster, averaging 150 - 180MB/s, whereas the original motherboard averaged about 20-40MB/s with the rate going up and down and the graph showing significant speed deviations. The new motherboard maintains a solid steady green speed graph in the Windows file copy progress dialog. After 186 Blue screens on my main M2 SSD installation and 64 Blue screens on a fresh installation on a separate SSD Sata drive, I've finally resolved the issue with a new motherboard. I'm about to reinstall Windows and move on. Unfortunately most of my software has deactivated due to the new motherboard but I'm hoping I can plead my case and point them to this forum post to get everything reactivated on my fresh Windows 10 installation. Let's hope the RMA process proceeds smoothly. I'll report back with a conclusion to this adventure. Thanks again Xaltar for your time and effort. My sanity is finally restored. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 2:47pm
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I take it the new motherboard is a different brand/model? What software is deactivated if you don't mind my asking? Would trying your replacement RMA board correct the issue? Its a pity we couldn't resolve the issues on the original board. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 6:43pm
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I did choose a different brand and model of motherboard. I haven't reinstalled Windows yet but Microsoft Office Professional 2016, Adobe Master Collection, Adobe RoboHelp and Norton Internet Security have all deactivated. I'll let you know how everything behaves after the reinstall. Hopefully, they reactivate without any dramas. I forgot to deactivate the Master Collection manually, which was stupid so hopefully it did that itself and will let me reactivate on the new install. You can deactivate Norton remotely from their website so it's no drama. RoboHelp is an expensive wild card and I'm not sure what Office will do. Other software like Visual Studio, Sony Vegas and Lightroom are currently behaving. I have no idea how their activation algorithms work. Swapping with the exact same motherboard may solve the problem but I think a motherboard has a unique ID, the same as the CPU so I doubt it would help. I really have no clue how all this works. |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 9:57am
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The saga continues! Good news for AsRock I think. After reinstalling Windows with the new motherboard from a different manufacturer, I had three blue screens before I'd even finished installing drivers. I cried a little at this point. I started again with a fresh install to see if it was a repeatable driver installation issue and this time got all the Windows updates completed and all the latest drivers installed. While installing Visual Studio, it blue screened yet again. They appear to be fairly random bug checks once again but all occur in ntoskrnl.exe+142780 the same as the AsRock board with the latest an IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL. I'm using the new 32GB of G.Skills RAM and a fresh Windows 10 installation but that's the only change from the previous few days of stability. On a brighter note, all software has activated without any issue. I've reordered the PSU I cancelled so I'll report back in a week or two. My current line of thinking is the new more expensive motherboard is hiding the PSU instability better than the AsRock board. To be fair to AsRock, if this system is ever stable, I'll reinstall using their motherboard before I do the RMA. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 12:41pm
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I am sorry to hear that. Lets hope the PSU is indeed the issue and it resolves your problems. Good luck. -------------
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Posted By: parsec
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 2:34pm
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A few thoughts related to your comments about the SATA drives and SATA chipsets. Check your PCH +1.0V setting in the UEFI, and the resulting voltage reading in the H/W Monitor screen. The PCH is the Intel Z170 chipset, containing the Intel SATA controller. Increase this voltage as an experiment. The Intel SATA chipset's power saving features for drives are not configurable unless you install the Intel IRST driver package. Yes, I know it's for RAID, but also has a superior AHCI driver. If your UEFI/BIOS has a SATA Link State Power Management option, disable it and keep it that way. If your UEFI has any of the PCH ASPM options enabled, try disabling them. Your M.2 850 EVO is a SATA drive. It just uses an M.2 interface. Your 3TB HDDs, formatted as GPT? Does the file copy failures happen with all the HDDs, or is it only one that is a hidden offender? ASMedia SATA chipset...  Mine are disabled. What driver do you use with the ASMedia SATA controllers?For an educational experience, connect a SSD to the ASMedia SATA chipset, and then run the Windows 8 - 10 optimize feature (manual TRIM) on that SSD.  ------------- http://valid.x86.fr/48rujh" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 27 May 2016 at 3:13pm
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Lots of great ideas there parsec. I'll try them if I ever get back to the AsRock K6 board. I no longer think it had anything to do with Sata drives. That was probably coincidence. I'm still no closer to resolving this. I had a complete week without computers while I waited for my new power supply, which was nice. The new PSU didn't help. Replaced all cables. Blue screened in an identical manner to before midway through installing drivers. Blue screened again while installing software. Disconnected absolutely everything. New motherboard, new PSU, new RAM, different video card, single USB Flash drive for Windows and another for drivers. The only things the same, are the M2 Sata SSD drive, the CPU, case and cooler. Windows installed fine, drivers installed fine, updates installed fine, visual studio and office installed fine. Connected my development drive and actually did some urgent work. It's been up now for 26 hours without any issues. I'm going to install components one by one with 24 hours between each change and document as I go. |
Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 27 May 2016 at 3:32pm
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Damn, that is the absolute worst kind of problem. I remember building a server for a client once that gave me similar issues. I replaced literally every component and the issues persisted. It would be working fine in my workshop but within hours of deployment it would start messing about. In the end I built the client an entirely new server only to have the same issue spring up yet again. Eventually it turned out that their battery backup was defective....... Moral of the story is check everything, sometimes the silliest thing could be tripping you up. Given the system seems OK with a minimal config and the PSU is brand new I would test your AC power and make sure it isn't fluctuating or running over or under spec. Good luck and thanks for keeping us posted. -------------
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Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 27 May 2016 at 3:37pm
The file copy seemed to trigger the blue screen so it was just what i was doing most often. All drives were affected. I did have one drive report bad sectors and I immediately ordered a new one. I copied all data from it during those four good days with the new motherboard. I then did a long format and ran another chkdsk /r. It came back good. Zero bad sectors. It also passed a long generic. It's still under warranty but appears to be OK. Default Microsoft drivers on the AsRock board and ASMedia drivers from Gigabyte on the new board. I do have the Intel IRST driver package installed. Thanks for your help and suggestions parsec. I think this may be a simple hardware issue and I've failed to isolate it because I've been so random in my approaches to resolve it. I'll soldier on and document everything from here. |
parsec wrote:Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 9:54am
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Computer is on full time apart from reboots after changing something. Long 24+ hour periods between blue screens makes things hard to analyse. I'm reluctant to change anything as the current barebone configuration did blue screen. New components since adventure began:
Changed component:
Thur, 06:10 - Installed Development drive & worked all day with WiFi. Nothing connected. No blue screens. At this stage, only the speakers and network cable were connected to an otherwise bare bone motherboard and it blue screened within an hour. Prior to this, it ran stable for several days. Can fully operational but fairly old speakers potentially cause blue screens on two different motherboards with two different sound cards from different manufacturers??? Fri, 15:58 - Disconnected network cable At this point, it's blue screened with both speakers and network cable connected but not with only one. The next few days I try to isolate it to one or the other but get no blue screens for several days. Computers never blue screen when you want them to... **** behaved overnight. Sat, 06:42 - Disconnected speakers **** behaved overnight. Sun, 07:00 - Connected speakers **** Let's try again from scratch with nothing installed. Sun, 20:23 - Reinstalled Windows and installed drivers with speakers and network cable disconnected **** behaved overnight. Mon, 07:16 - Connected speakers What can I try next? I'm thinking of swapping back to the AsRock board as it was certainly less stable than this one, which might help to isolate the issue. |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 7:29am
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The annoying conclusion to a miserable chapter of my life. I switched back to the ASRock K6 board. I was going to run it with the old power supply outside the case but the cooler radiator is a pain to remove so I went for a complete swap. Final task was the CPU. I checked again for bent pins after seeing some photos while researching this issue. I found one. It required a magnifying glass and checking each and every pin. My previous check - as suggested way back by Xaltar - was with cursory disbelief and just my eyes. Not surprising I didn't see it. The pin was on an edge near the corner folded back on itself and hidden beneath the corner pin so it looked more like an empty pin than a bent one. I straightened it as best I could and it looked normal but still noticeably not quite right. The computer didn't post. Cycled through 00, 19, 4C error codes in a non-stop loop. I tried straightening it again but no joy. I swapped back to the Gigabyte board, which is all good, perfect pins and it booted fine. It also ran Prime95 all night without any issue. I have no clue how or when the pin was bent. It may have been from day one or during storage preparation after installing the new motherboard. I'm pretty careful and don't remember any problems. I did tighten the cooler with a screwdriver on the very first install but only finger tight since reseating the CPU. I have no idea how it ever worked or if it was definitely the reason but it's damaged now so I'll never know for sure. I'm closing this thread with the likely cause a bent pin on the socket. The Gigabyte board is another story but I'm starting to think it's just a simple driver issue. It worked fine for days with the original installation, which had newer drivers. The blue screens have been far less common and always on fresh installs with the stock Gigabyte drivers and the Killer Network software. I've always assumed it was the same issue as the ASRock board and haven't done much in the way of basic trouble shooting. I'm going to start afresh and move forward as if I have a new computer. If the blue screens persist, I'll start a new thread on the Gigabyte forum. Thanks again for all you help. Apologies Xaltar for not following one of your very first suggestions as well as I should have. Cheers. Mick. |
Posted By: heapson
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 4:02pm
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It's been well over a year without a BSOD and I never wrapped this thread up. The problem was not bent pins although I did bend pins storing this motherboard and switching to a Gigabyte board. The issue persisted on the Gigabyte board but disappeared after I replaced the GPU. The conclusion was the combination of an intermittent faulty AMD graphics card and faulty Intel drivers for when the GPU was removed. This gave the false illusion that the AMD GPU was not to blame as the problem persisted with it removed. Just wanted to say this had nothing to do with the AsRock board. |