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Stability issues with Z97E-ITX/ac mainbaord

Printed From: ASRock.com
Category: Technical Support
Forum Name: Intel Motherboards
Forum Description: Question about ASRock Intel Motherboards
URL: https://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=867
Printed Date: 10 May 2024 at 1:22pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Stability issues with Z97E-ITX/ac mainbaord
Posted By: duck4
Subject: Stability issues with Z97E-ITX/ac mainbaord
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2015 at 6:41pm
Hello,

I've got the Z97E-ITX/ac mainboard (BIOS V1.80) running with an Intel i5-5675C (Broadwell) CPU and the whole system locks up every now and then without anything being obviously wrong (temperatues and voltages are fine). It seems as if the crashes happen mostly during idle periods or when the system load changes rapidly from high load to low load. When disabling turbo boost in the BIOS the crashes happen a lot less frequently, but still occur every once in a while. I tried three different power supplies (all rather modern 80 plus gold units with 450 or 500 W each), but the problem remains. I've also tried different RAM modules (all of which work fine in other systems). When I stress the CPU with something like mprime on all four cores, the system can run fine for hours and mprime does not report any errors.
Any ideas what might be the issue and how to fix this problem?



Replies:
Posted By: TylerL
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2015 at 4:31am
Same problem here with precisely the same combination of board and CPU.
For me, it seems rapid changes in load are the culprit, possibly involving highly-optimized code using AVX extensions. Running batch scripts of these processes is fraught with danger, and I frequently come back to my computer in the morning to find it had reset with an 0x0000009C error.

Running Windows 10 x64


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2015 at 11:14pm
So it looks like I'm not alone with this problem.
It seems that the system is stable when I disable both Turbo Boost and Speed Step (or at least the crashes occur so rarely with those settings that I didn't encounter one yet), but this can't seriously be the solution. I bought this mainboard because it is supposed to be energy efficient and not being able to use Speed Step doesn't help here. Also being forced to disable Turbo Boost isn't exactly what I was hoping for when bying the mainboard and CPU.
I would really appreciate if someone from AsRock would respond.


Posted By: parsec
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 12:58am
I'm still studying the Intel Datasheet for the Broadwell processors, but the reduced and configurable TDP processors like an i5-5675C (65W TDP standard Max, down to 37W if configured as such) are very interesting.

We don't have much experience with them in the forum, as they are not used by as many PC builders as other processors. In their datasheet, Intel has added more information and cautions about exceeding specific temperature and power limits than other processors, which may be related to your issue. Since you can reduce the instances of the issue by disabling Turbo, that is the first clue that temperature and power limits are likely the cause.

Please keep in mind that this processor is unlike other Intel processors in those respects. The default UEFI/BIOS settings for CPU power limits called for by Intel for this processor and likely implemented by ASRock, might be the cause of your issues. Knowing Intel's conservative nature, I would not be surprised.

Questions for both of you:

What CPU cooler are you using?

duck4, you said temperatures are fine, what are the idle temperatures? It is not well known that the maximum CPU temperature when the CPU is at idle/low clock speed is not the same as the maximum CPU temperature at the maximum CPU clock speed. It is much less.

I suggest increasing the default settings of these options in the OC Tweaker screen, at least as a test to see if that fixes your problem:

Short Duration Power Limit

Long Duration Power Limit

Long Duration Maintained

Primary Plane Current Limit


If you'd like to experiment with those options while in Windows, the Intel Extreme Tuning Utility (IXTU) program may allow you to do so. Depending upon how Intel has programmed IXTU, it might not let you change some or all of these options, that is common with IXTU. I don't have your CPU, so I don't know either way.

You can find that program here:

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/24075/Intel-Extreme-Tuning-Utility-Intel-XTU-" rel="nofollow - https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/24075/Intel-Extreme-Tuning-Utility-Intel-XTU-




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http://valid.x86.fr/48rujh" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 1:20am
Thank you, parsec for your response!
I'm using the stock CPU cooler (with the thermal pad coming with it). Idle temperature is around 34~35 °C (with ambient temperature of about 21 °C) - seems okay to me.
As for the power limit settings, I've tried changing these already, mostly because I was running out of ideas, what else to try. It seems no matter which values I choose, the crashes remain. If I set very low values, especially for the current limit, the CPU gets noticably slow, other than that, nothing much changes. Explicitly setting the power limit to 65 watts (which is the TDP of the CPU specified by Intel) does not seem to change anything over the BIOS default. I haven't tried going above that value.



Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 3:09am
One thing I would try in your situation is setting your VCore to a fixed value (override not adaptive). Fire up CPUZ/hwmonitor etc and see what your CPU uses under full load and set your VCore to that in BIOS. Given that you seem to be having issues when the CPU is changing performance states I would lean toward the board not shifting the voltage quickly enough between low to high state changes. Obviously this is not a fix, and you will probably not want to run your CPU on a fixed VCore but it will help determine where the problem is coming from. If my suspicions are correct then it is likely that a BIOS update may be required to better handle performance state switching. If this is so then you will want to send a support ticket to ASRock tech support and link to this thread.

I hope this is of some help.


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 3:36pm
Xaltar, thanks for your suggestion. I've tried using a fixed CPU core voltage, but that alone does not fix the issue. The thing is, there is more than just the CPU core voltage that can vary and I haven't set all of the variable voltages (like the GPU voltage) to fixed values yet. I assume that this might be the right direction, though. Maybe something along the lines of the CPU or GPU voltage not being adjusted in the time frame expected by the CPU when switching between frequency states or something like that. I'm afraid this might be something only fixable by a new BIOS.


Posted By: parsec
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2015 at 1:25am
Originally posted by duck4 duck4 wrote:

Thank you, parsec for your response!
I'm using the stock CPU cooler (with the thermal pad coming with it). Idle temperature is around 34~35 °C (with ambient temperature of about 21 °C) - seems okay to me.
As for the power limit settings, I've tried changing these already, mostly because I was running out of ideas, what else to try. It seems no matter which values I choose, the crashes remain. If I set very low values, especially for the current limit, the CPU gets noticably slow, other than that, nothing much changes. Explicitly setting the power limit to 65 watts (which is the TDP of the CPU specified by Intel) does not seem to change anything over the BIOS default. I haven't tried going above that value.



I may be seeing your problem, the power limit set to 65W. TDP and processor power are really not the same thing. TDP is really the Thermal Design Power, the (minimum) amount of heat the CPU cooler must be able to dissipate to cool the processor properly. TDP and processor power usage, the latter being an average value, can seem to be the same, but aren't in many cases.

The transient, or short term burst power usage can be more than we ever see in monitoring programs. The power limit default setting on Intel mother boards meant for over clocking processors is set to 4095 Watts. That is the maximum value and overkill, but 65 Watts is very low.

Setting the power limit to a high value does not mean the processor will receive that much power, but only that much is available. Try setting the power limit to 500 Watts.

Also, what is the LLC, Load Line Calibration option set to in the UEFI? The default is 5, the lowest value. If you aren't familiar with LLC, higher settings (1 is the highest) prevent the VCore from drooping or dropping below the normal value, which tends to happen when the CPU power draw increases quickly.

Try setting LLC to 3, and increase the power limit to at least 200 Watts, and see if that helps.


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Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2015 at 2:22am
Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:


I may be seeing your problem, the power limit set to 65W. TDP and processor power are really not the same thing. TDP is really the Thermal Design Power, the (minimum) amount of heat the CPU cooler must be able to dissipate to cool the processor properly. TDP and processor power usage, the latter being an average value, can seem to be the same, but aren't in many cases.

I know that they are not the same, but since I am not interested in running the processor beyond its specifications and I do not know the value used by Intel, I've picked a safe choice. I did not run the processor with that setting all the time, I just tried some values to see if there is any difference in stability.

Quote
The transient, or short term burst power usage can be more than we ever see in monitoring programs. The power limit default setting on Intel mother boards meant for over clocking processors is set to 4095 Watts. That is the maximum value and overkill, but 65 Watts is very low.

Setting the power limit to a high value does not mean the processor will receive that much power, but only that much is available. Try setting the power limit to 500 Watts.

I can try that, but why would you suspect that it might be stable with that value, but not with 65 W nor 4095 W?

Quote
Also, what is the LLC, Load Line Calibration option set to in the UEFI? The default is 5, the lowest value. If you aren't familiar with LLC, higher settings (1 is the highest) prevent the VCore from drooping or dropping below the normal value, which tends to happen when the CPU power draw increases quickly.

Since I left pretty much everything at its default, it is most likely 5 then.

Quote
Try setting LLC to 3, and increase the power limit to at least 200 Watts, and see if that helps.

I'll try that.


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2015 at 10:23pm
Setting the power limit to the suggested 500 W did not help, the machine still crashes.


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2015 at 4:52pm
Setting LLC to 3 did not help either.


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2015 at 8:25pm
Due to the lack of other options I have been running the board with turbo and speed step disabled for a while now and I can say that it has been stable with that configuration. I haven't experienced a single crash. Loading the UEFI default makes it unstable again.
I have been searching the net for this problem and have come to the conclusion that I am far from alone with this issue. Lots of other people have had issues with Broadwell CPUs on desktop boards (not only on ASRock boards), but other manufacturers have released BIOS updates since, that seem to fix those issues (e.g. Gigabyte and ASUS). Since I can't find an update on the ASRock website, I was wondering, when I can expect an update?

The way this is (or isn't)  resolved will surely have an influence on which mainboard brand I choose next time. I liked ASRock boards due to their usually good power efficiency, but not being able to use a CPU properly that is supposed to be working on that board, does not leave particularly a good impression.


Posted By: parsec
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2015 at 11:27pm
Interesting about disabling Turbo and Speed Step increasing stability. That causes the CPU speed to remain the same as you know. That correlates with my theory I mentioned earlier.

Do you have any idea what the UEFI/BIOS updates contained that the other manufactures apparently provided?


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Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2015 at 2:34am
Yes, the CPU speed is locked at the default clock with those two options disabled. Transitioning between the CPU's C states on the other hand works just fine (it remains mostly in C6 when the CPU is idle). Since those transitions between C0 and the higher C states cause a large difference in current flowing it does not seem to me that the power regulators can't keep up with the changes, otherwise I would expect the system to crash even with turbo disabled (even if maybe less frequently).

I don't know exactly what those UEFI updates contain, as the changelogs are usually rather vague, somthing along the lines of "Improved stability for Broadwell CPUs" or "Better system compatibility for 5th generation processors".


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2015 at 5:13pm
Apparently, a CPU microcode update is what fixes the issues.

https://github.com/bgw/bdw-ucode-update-tool" rel="nofollow - https://github.com/bgw/bdw-ucode-update-tool



Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 3:46pm
My question is still unanswered. Will there be a BIOS/UEFI update any time soon? It can't be that difficult to replace the microcode in the BIOS with the new version.


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2015 at 1:27am
Anything?

I've tried loading the microcode update someone extracted from a MSI BIOS (version 0x12 - it seems there is version 0x13 by now which I haven't tried yet. Version 0x13 disables TSX which apperently is also broken on Broadwell) for my CPU under Linux and can confirm that there are no more crashes. Maybe this helps others with the same issue. I have no idea how to do the same thing under Windows though and even under Linux this is more of a stop-gap solution than a real fix. So I'm still waiting for an answer or even better yet, a BIOS update.


Posted By: Termie
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2015 at 2:28am
Ouch... thank you for this not unimportant thread. An i5-5675C is practically ordered here, but now I have to delay this, too bad. I also hope that an updated UEFI/BIOS for Z97E-ITX/ac which fix this issue will be released soon.


Posted By: Termie
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 2:03am
noticed just now... http://www.jzelectronic.de/jz2/news.php?lid=1445328053&auswahl=anzeige2&z=1&ssl=1" rel="nofollow - yesterday many ASRock Z97 boards received a BIOS update , only Z97E-ITX/ac owners leave empty-handed. Confused


Posted By: ASRock_TSD
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 11:44am
Greetings, This is ASRock Technical Support Department.

Please download the BIOS P2.00 which update Microcode to 13 from the link for try.
http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z97E-ITXac/?cat=Beta 

If any, please feel free to contact us.

Kindest Regards,
ASRock TSD


Posted By: duck4
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 8:24pm
Thanks.


Posted By: TylerL
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2015 at 11:28am
After a handful of crashes within just an hour of gaming early last night, I checked the ASRock download section on a whim, and noticed and installed the beta BIOS.

Not a single crash over 24 hours later. So far, so good...


Posted By: Xaltar
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2015 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by TylerL TylerL wrote:

After a handful of crashes within just an hour of gaming early last night, I checked the ASRock download section on a whim, and noticed and installed the beta BIOS.

Not a single crash over 24 hours later. So far, so good...

That is great news, thanks for letting us know Thumbs Up




Posted By: Termie
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2015 at 7:27pm
In the meantime (~2 weeks ago) I received a second Beta BIOS from ASRock Support. The Broadwell
runs almost fine with it, so far, so good. But when I look to other manufacturers, their BIOS offers
nice Broadwell features like

Smile set/raise Broadwells max. TDP
Tongue overclock and overvolt Iris IGP
Clap set eDRAM ratio (clock relatively to baseclock)

So what about an 'official' final Z97E-ITX/ac BIOS which supports Broadwell features better?
Anything in progress in this regard? I´m not really happy if I have to work with a Beta BIOS in the
medium term.



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