Ah the shenanigans in the world of computer hardware.

Rewind to a not so distant past. I purchased an ASRock AB350M Pro4 motherboard. I populated the motherboard with my Patriot Vipers kit (PV416G300C6K) in a 2x8GB dual-channel mode. My kit was listed as compatible with this motherboard @ 2933MHz. Wonderful.

Fast forward to today as I check ASRock's QVL memory list again to see if the list has "grown". Much to my surprise, the list has actually "shrunk" by at least 1 memory kit anyway. What kit was removed? The Patriot Vipers 16GB (2x8GB) memory kit. Mine.

This is highly surprising to me and I'm not real happy about it. However, I think it was the right thing for them to do in the end. Because my chips never ran reliably @ 2933MHz no matter what I did.

I blame Patriot for this pain I've had to endure more than anybody. They sold 2 different sets of memory under the same model number using different memory dies.

I'm guessing ASRock got way too many complaints about listing the model # as being compatible from those who had purchased the memory kit with the incompatible memory dies.

Does this removal of compatible memory kits happen very often? I'm guessing that it's a rare occurrence. It took me by surprise but as I said earlier in my post...Good on ASRock for doing the right thing. Patriot should be ashamed of themselves.

 

to be fair

a few of the ram makers *have* to change where they can source chips for each production run

corsair for exapmle have used different chips on same model ram (in some cases they have stated a different revision though when they do)

it usually goes un-noticed with either or both intel users and a more forgiving bios, and so many sets of ram are simply not even set with xmp in bios (crazy as it sounds but true i know so many cases of ram not even being set at xmp in systems)

maybe due to a bios update and then lack of manually setting it after or simply user plugging it in and not even knowing they have to activate xmp

with regards to you yes you do seem to be unfortunate, have you tried maybe getting 2666 with ryzen dram calculator ?

But what's not really fair is that Patriot makes it almost impossible to determine which revision an end-user may have purchased. It's not something printed on the packaging...anywhere.

Okay, you had to buy new memory dies from a different manufacturer. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend your not trying to do a bait-and-switch to make more money. Print that information on the packaging, and on the memory stickers on the physical chips, and make it easily reachable/findable/viewable in your memory's SPD information. I never could find it using various low-level software programs that an end-user shouldn't even be messing with.

See this post I posted in the past:

http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp%3FTID=8501&title=pv416g300c6k-11bf2-how-do-i-check" rel="nofollow - http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8501&title=pv416g300c6k-11bf2-how-do-i-check

Hmmm, the link above doesn't work when I click it. The question mark (?) changes and causes a 404 error. What does "NoFollow is applied to all links from this forum" actually mean?

Edit: To answer your question, I tried lots of stuff and I'm frankly tired of trying at this point. I'm just going to buy a new memory kit that is guaranteed to be AB350 compatible from ASRocks...**cough**...updated QVL list and hope it doesn't change again in 3 weeks.

And I'm actually looking at a Patriot kit. I must be stupid. But it's a good price so.

Although, if I could get the memory running @ 2666MHz (and running stable) it would be better than running @ 2133MHz like I've had to do since I bought these crappy chips.

it still seems

the better way t go is the sticks with samsung b dies

it does seem these are only fitted to some brand sticks above 3200mhz but thats not 100%

but i dont know any fitted to below 3200 for sure

ive been lucky with ram

first set i found on an old uk based pc parts website that didnt quite follow price trends so i grabbed them for about 75% of major player websites

second set of ram was very very lucky major high street pc shop closing down and grabbed 4x8gb kit of 3866mhz ,for £330 then sold off 2 sticks for £200

so now i have 2x8gb owing me around $140 ish (£130)

both sets were not on the qvl list ever

From all the reading I've done over the past few months after "switching teams" (going from Intel to AMD) I've heard nothing but good things about the Samsung B-die memory chips.

However, if one goes by ASRocks QVL memory listing (as of right now) there are lots of other good choices for memory kits that aren't specifically outfitted with Samsung B-dies. At least, if they are, it's not shown by ASRock in the QVL listing.

All other things being equal, if I can achieve the speeds I actually pay for then I'll be happy. Regardless of who actually made the chips.

*EDIT*: It seems my memory kit wasn't removed after all. I think I was reading the wrong page for a bit. There are two QVL lists, one specifically for (Raven Ridge). OOpps!

I did look at the entire list again regarding what you said about memory manufacturers sourcing from different chip suppliers. There was 1 stand-out among Corsair stating a specific model number but specifying it be a specific version.

Patriot stood out more than anybody with 8 different model numbers that must have specific types of chips to work. 

But that's a myth. If Ryzen "required" Samsung B-dies to reach 2933MHz (let alone 3200MHz) AMD would have so stated. And secondly, ASRocks QVL memory (Raven Ridge) would be meaningless also.

It clearly shows that you can buy memory kits without Samsung B-dies and reach the max speeds of 2933MHz that are officially supported by Ryzen.

And yes, my motherboard is not the most expensive but it's not the cheapest either. It's actually middle tier. The purpose of the QVL is to let consumers know what memory kits work with the AB350M motherboards. The kits listed on ASRocks memory support page will work because ASRock has tested these kits specifically:

http://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/AB350M%20Pro4/index.us.asp#MemoryRR" rel="nofollow - https://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/AB350M%20Pro4/index.us.asp#MemoryRR

, providing you read all the fine print like model "revisions" or specific numbers in parentheses with regards to Patriot memory kits. In other words, the model number alone is not enough to leave all doubt aside that you bought (or are buying) the right kit. In these rare cases, check the revisions or extra details.

A bad draw of luck? Or Patriot trying to pass the buck on to unsuspecting consumers like I was at the time of purchase, almost 3 years ago? I bought this kit when DDR4 just hit the map. It's a 16GB (2x8Gb) DDR4 3000MHz kit for $89.99. I've used it for about 3 years now but only ever really ran it at 2133MHz because I was such a noob at memory speeds. I put these memory chips in motherboards along with CPUs that didn't even support those high speeds.

Still, I'll bet I can sell it today for more than I paid 3 years ago. So, not the worst luck one could have.

PatriotVipers wrote: Still, I'll bet I can sell it today for more than I paid 3 years ago. So, not the worst luck one could have.

True, I'd have done it a ling time ago if I was you. Dem Ryzens love great memory speeds. Bad thing is now good RAM cost an arm and a leg.

P.S. you don't really expect AMD stating on the box their memory controllers are rather picky when memory type is concerned? Word on the streets is AMD are still trying to fix the AGESA mess they've created.

True, 1st generation Ryzen's maximum supported memory speeds are a bit less than Raven Ridge's (Ryzen+). Although, I believe it's 2666MHz for 1st generation Ryzen's and 2933MHz for Ryzen+. I think you lose 266MHz anytime you populate 4 slots versus just 2. So on 1st-gen Ryzens with all 4 memory slots populated, your probably right.

With regards to AMD coming out and stating that Samsung B-Die's are required to reach 3200MHz, I doubt they would do that. So your right about that.

I just feel like the ASRock QVL memory list is the best way to make one's purchasing decisions. Provided that you watch those anomalies that Corsair and Patriot throw in the mix.

If it's on the QVL and tested at that speed you should get that speed.

I would love to purchase a memory set that uses Samsung B-Dies and runs @ 3200MHz. But I guess I'll have to decide whether the price premiums are worth the extra speed or not.

I'm not a hardcore gamer so I may be happy with running @ 2933MHz or 2800MHz.

Can you share the brand/model number of the 3200MHz kit you are using? Are you using 2 chips or 4?

to throw in a devils advocate point here

amd code is picky about ram but ALSO some brands of board bios are better than others

ive assisted mates with three different msi tomahawks (and im afraind to say there ram tables ((bios ability)) makes asrocks look poor)

first one was corsair 2400 one attempt and got 2933 which has been stable for well over 6 months now

second one was corsair 2933 and directly clicked xmp 2933 (ive since smashed the timings much lower to a great increase in fps in games)

third the guy played safe and used 3200 flareX but that runs 3333 cl14 and tightened timings

and last month i built a msi titainium x370 used tridentz rgb (the spare two from my kit ) and first attempt set 3333 cl14 and tight secondaries

all above are using first gen ryzen bios (apperently not as tuned for ram)

patriot i feel maybe if you can find the cash with your 'keeness' to play with system and get what it should perform then b die rams may be your option

the fit and forget crowd are the ones buying up all this cheaper branded stuff

either way if you want to spend some time tuning the system myself and others are here to help

im using 2nd gen bios, no issues here, ram is running at higher speed with just added voltage to ram (vsoc is default)

with first gen bios my ram is stable as qvl says (2933)

Oh, I've done a lot of reading to try and figure this all out but there is so much to learn it boggles my mind. Please, if you can, help me understand as a simpleton.
 

Wow, you have posted lots of interesting information. I've read a lot of different things about how to get the fastest memory performance on my new system. I'm not even looking for fastest. I would be happy with just 'faster'. 

Of course, If I had lots of expendable income I would just buy all better parts. But the parts I have are:

AMD 2200G CPU

ASRock AB350M Pro4 Motherboard

Patriot Viper 16GB (2x8GB) 3000MHz memory PV416G300C6K 

(not 11BF2 ICs I'm assuming as shown on ASRocks QVL Memory list for RavenRidge)

I've actually had the memory running @ 2934MHz but it's never ran stable (i.e. days at a time) without Windows giving me a green screen (I think that's the new 'hip' color for the old BSOD's).

I've had the system up and running @ 2800MHz but not for days. Eventually, Windows 10 crashes.

So, I've been stuck with running this memory @ 2134MHz from the time I purchased it about 3 years ago. When I'm purchased this specific memory I was so inexperienced I didn't even know that I needed a motherboard that supported the faster memory speeds. At least it's stable at this speed. I would be very happy to get any extra performance above what I'm getting now.

If what you say above regarding the quality of the BIOS is true then my best hope may simply be to wait for ASRock to release a BIOS that finally recognizes my specific set of memory sticks and set the timings for me. But if you can help me do it sooner that would be great also.

i can help of course

but a great starting point for most people is to just use the ryzen ram calculator

its easy you load and run a program called thaiphoon, that reads the actual details and specs of your ram sticks for you

you record the brand and batch of the chips on the ram sticks ,and the xmp data (the xmp data is used to basically define how good the chips are compared to other chips in same model/batch)

you then enter the xmp data into the calculator and the make of the chips select what speed you want them to run at e.g. 2666 or 2933 and press on the button to get the suggested settings to manually fill in, in the bios

you choices are safe/fast and extreme so you try the fast settings if its stable maybe try faster speed and new set of data/settings if its not stable you 'sulk' blame patriot for giving you crap binned chips and set the safe timings in bios

then come back to us and ask for help and advice on what might make the fast setting work

heres the link and a video showing a guy walking thru it

https://www.overclock.net/forum/13-amd-general/1640919-ryzen-dram-calculator-1-1-0-beta-2-overclocking-dram-am4.html#post_26417503

BE WARNED THE AUTHOR AND EVERYONE USING IT ,SAYS THE SAME

ENTER ALL THE SUGGESTED FIELDS INTO YOUR BIOS !

they work in harmony with each other

just changing the primary timings will not yeald good results,you need to tweak everything suggested

Check this out, it's a picture of one of my hard disk folders:

It seems I've been down this road before but I'll try again. :)

It looks like there is a later version of the DRAM calculator now since then time I first tried it. Maybe, that will help this time around. 

So, I just took this screenshot with Thaiphoon:

I think I remember, now, why my confidence was shaken in using this software. The very first setting it wants me to know is the "Memory Type". The "Thaiphoon" software shows my "DRAM Component Manufacturer" value as "Undefined". I think I tried selecting one or two types but without confidence in the truth of the very first setting I probably didn't use the software for very long. The confidence level in the correct "Memory Type" setting being selected is weak. If someone can tell me from the "Thaiphoon" screenshot or any other information I can provide, please let me know.

Thanks

i would try the hynix and the micron setting on the calc.(and use dual rank)

one thing im sure of its not samsung b die

and try 2933 safe for results

I'm sure you know this already but there are 3 different selections for Hynix: MFR, AFR, CFR

and

4 different selections for Micron: B, A, H and E-dies.

There are an awful lot of values it looks like I need to type in to try these so I'd like a high level of confidence in that I'm telling the software the proper ICs for my memory chips.

Here's a "Report" screenshot from the "Thaiphoon" software that shows the word "Micron", does that mean these chips are from Micron?

Question 1: What does "R-XMP" mean? "Read XMP Profile" from my specific memory chips? I seem to remember having to click that before any of the other 3 buttons even worked.

Question 2: I counted about 41 "red border" values which I assume I need to enter manually in my BIOS. But what about those values on the right side of the screen: "Voltage Block, Misc items, Termination Block, CD_BUS Block". Am I responsible for entering all of those values as well? Please say no? Please? :)

since you said it was unstable i'd would loosen the timings or increase the voltage from 2934 

thats the joy of overclocking lots of trial and errors and from my experience if its unstable its usually just need a voltage bump or 2. 

and why did you stop at 2133 i'm guessing that the settings the board gives you after it crashes or fails to boot xmp. 

its kinda rare for kits to come unmarked these days. Hehe i came from an age where you have to physically look at the serial number and production date to get the right chips or worst case pry open the heatsinks.

B-dies are highly recommended not because of its speed but its flexibility to run 3200-4000+ (cl-13-19) even with the low quality ones would do that with a little more volts this always been the characteristics of samsung chips volt hungry little devils.

1, R-XMP reads the XMP settings on your kits and input those values for you then you could click the 3 buttons to give you a suggested timing.

my kits are pre-ryzen and dram calc settings doesn't boot for me i'm all manual till i got to where i am now

2, for best results the answer is yes or you can pray to your bios mem training and set all secondary settings to auto 

I've included a screen capture of SiSoftware Sandra from a few months back when I was really investing time in this goal to show what timings I used. I was changing numbers I don't even really understand. But here's an idea of what they were. All these trials were at 1.35V. I always assumed that you ran it at 1.2V or 1.35V. I've never tried anything different out of FEAR. :)

Here's a direct link to the image above:

https://i.imgur.com/6rjtSAU.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/6rjtSAU.png

 It's not showing up as big as I'd like in my post so it's a bit harder to read.

Here's a more detailed webpage of my most successful benchmark showing timings used:

http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_run.php%3Fq=c2ffcdffd9b8d9e4ddefd7e6d7e0c6b489b99ffa9fa292b4c7faca&l=en" rel="nofollow - http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_run.php%3Fq=c2ffcdffd9b8d9e4ddefd7e6d7e0c6b489b99ffa9fa292b4c7faca&l=en

If that doesn't work here's a screenshot showing the timings:

I wrote to Patriot asking them how to know what IC's I have on my memory sticks. They want screenshots of the front and back. That's already going to be a pain but if they mean I have to remove the heat spreaders then I'm probably not going to do that. That doubles up on the pain.

Thanks for the good information.

well ive just spent ages trying to find the info on google

no luck

the only result i did find was a review with the same issue

eg thaiphoon didnt read the details................ and another post from a guy moaning he cant use the dram calc. due to same issue

a reply was a new version of thaiphoon due soon with more ability to read them

all i can suggest is either or both options below

carry on hating patriot   and try clicking the r-xmp and safe for 2933 (if it can work it out without chip i.d. )

Thank you for your help. 

I've heard back from Patriot and they say I don't have to remove the heat spreaders. They just need to see the stickers on the sticks. So, I'm happy about that.

However, I've sent a screenshot of "ThaiPhoon" (same one I posted on here) to Patriot to see if it's "enough" details to tell me what ICs I have on these chips without screenshots of the stickers.

Once (or if) they identify the ICs for me I'm sure I'll get to where I need to be a whole lot quicker.

I don't necessarily hate Patriot. Substituting ICs that don't effect performance one way or the other is fine. But it's a shady practice if you knowingly do this with the full knowledge that the parts don't offer the same level of performance. That is to say, it's fine to do this if there is no noticeable difference to the consumer.

On the other hand, when I purchased these memory chips 3 years ago Ryzen had not Risen yet I don't think. So, it's not necessarily all Patriot's fault I guess. I'm sure these memory chips run @ 3000MHz or faster on a good Intel platform without all the extra hoops that are required to get them working on Ryzen. The fact is, I'm recycling them for a brand new architecture and I guess I should be grateful that they work at all.

just to add to above post by xhue which was good info

but as much as we would like faster mhz for ryzens infinity

we also must remember to keep the cl timings in check

a mad example is dont go for 3000mhz if its at a cost of cl20 timings

we want to try and keep the cl16 region while getting 3000 ish mhz

I just got a reply back from Patriot's support and the ThaiPhoon shot I linked in the email was enough for them to tell me I have Micron chips (I'm guessing they simply used the "Initial Raw Card Designer" field to tell me that). Although, they didn't specify whether or not they are A, B, E, or H-Die's. I've asked for more specifics and I'm awaiting a reply.

So, I've just narrowed my workload down to 4 possibilities.

the micron on thaiphoon(in RAW CARD section )

i think isnt the chips/ic's i think its maybe the carrier for them eg the circuit board and layout etc (for example mine says sk hynix, and i can assure you i have samsung b dies)

also while i was looking earlier

there was a review that said you can remove heatsinks very very easily to avoid clash with cpu coolers ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT this was for the rgb coolers ,im not sure if the non rgb is the same mate

but what we know now is

micron

dual ranked (double sided)

if they cant tell you what dies ,my next move for sherlock holmes would be to look at thaiphoon screenshots for micron dual sided 8gb sticks to see matching jedec timings and see what dies they are

for now lets follow the SPD settings keep everything at 1.35v and just set primary timings 

test with 

16-18-18-36 start at 2133 save boot run something like 3dmark or whatever quick benchmarks if it doesn't crash change the 2133 to the next speed settings and repeat until you reach a point the system doesn't boot or is unstable. it would be wise to write down the results.

16-18-18-36 are loose timings that your kit can run (based on online specs) but i dont know why thaiphoon shows another timing 16-16-16-36 which is fine you can use this and repeat the test above 

stick to the SPD settings because those are what your kits are suppose to be able to run remember your target is 3000mhz for now. Dont think about CL lower than 16 and dont be shy to use higher ones 

@Gizmic

Patriot says, from some numbers on my stickers, that these are Micron B-Dies. The numbers don't appear to be serial numbers. In fact, I don't even think my chips have serial numbers. ThaiPhoon doesn't read them and they aren't on the stickers either.

I selected Micron B-Dies @ 3200MHz in the Ryzen DRAM Calculator and then clicked R-XMP and then Calculate SAFE. I think the 4 biggies it gave me are 16-18-18-38.

So, all those numbers are in my BIOS. The system didn't seem to boot up @ 3200MHz. So, I'm up and running @ 2934MHz again. I've been here before but maybe it will work this time.

I'll let this thing run until it crashes I guess. Hopefully, it won't.

if its booting at 2933 cl 16/18/18/38 then thats the start point

first things i would suggest if its not stable after  now is

setting the PROC ODT to suggested setting and a little volt bump to 1.375

(can i confirm you selected the '2 sticks double sided' in the calc. as well ?)

Yes, I'm up and running @ 2934MHz but it's already "Green Screened" a couple of times.

CPU-Z shows my memory sticks are "Rank: Dual":

https://i.imgur.com/EWkso7o.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/EWkso7o.png

I've got the procODT set to 68.6 Ohms per the Ryzen DRAM Calculator suggestion.

I think I've made a big mistake though. I used the Ryzen DRAM calculator for the 3200MHz settings. When the system would not boot at that speed I simply changed it to use 2933MHz in the BIOS.

I probably should use the Ryzen DRAM calculator again and "Calculate SAFE" specifically for 2933MHz.

I just ran the "Windows Memory Diagnostics Tool" on boot up and the test passed successfully. I'm actually surprised by that. Maybe Windows 10 is crashing for reasons apart from the memory speeds.

to be honest the safe settings for 2933 will be tighter timings than the safe for 3200

so theres less chance of an issue at the sub timings for 3200 than for 2933

yes dual ranked /double sided means the same thing

the other thing that might be causing an issue is the 1T timing , it may need to be set hard for 2T

I'm up and running with a CL of 14 which I am impressed by. But should I be? I have no clue.

*fingers crossed*

Unless the "real" RAM frequency is 2400MHz they doubled this up one too many times.

real ram frequency is 1200mhz for 2400 effective speed for ddr, 4800 for qdr (used in gpus)

(real frequency x double/quad x bits x channels = amount of bits) / 1 byte (8 bits)

(1200 x 2 x 64 x 2)/8 = 38.4GB/s

I've got my PV416G300C6K memory kit running @ 2400MHz (stable) using CL 14. Is this impressive or no?

My memory is supposed to run at CL 16. Or is this no big deal and done all the time? I'm going to try to run it @ 2666MHz today. I was getting "Event 41 - Kernel Power" issues running it @ 3000MHz and 2800MHz.

**UPDATE**: I seem to be running very stable @ 2666MHz CL 14. Is this not a miracle?

Well, two points come to mind regarding your comments.

#1 Suggesting these chips are not 'decent' is not entirely fair since Patriot never said they would be compatible with an CPU architecture that would be released 3 years into the future. These might run @ 3000MHz upon first boot if I had paired them up with a proper Intel CPU on a Z-chipset motherboard. The blunder of pairing up incompatible components is a responsibility I accept personally. I've desperately tried to recycle older RAM in the wake of criminally high DDR4 memory prices. Although, they are finally beginning to slowly drop at the moment.

#2 If you can convince me that these chips are NOT decent in light of point #1 then I'll be happy to consider selling them to somebody. Although, it might not be EBay as I think their hands go way to deep down into my pants for the trivial service that they provide.

Thanks for reading

Also, please explain why the settings I show in the screenshot are somehow "bad" if my system is up and running stable @ 2666MHz for the first time since I bought these chips 3 years ago?

I was stuck @ 2133MHz the whole time I used them on my Intel based system but that was my own fault. I've been stuck @ 2133MHz on my AMD based system for awhile. But this time it's not my fault since I got a compatible motherboard that supports memory overclocking.

So, right now I'm up 533MHz and you want me to sell the chips, why?

Yes, the difficult experience has been educational for me. I've learned things I didn't know before. And I'm still learning now. If I bailed on everything I attempted the moment it became difficult I would never know anything.

The more I learn "now" from these memory sticks you categorize as not being 'decent' the more educated I'll feel when I actually do purchase my next memory kit.

Your own words:

"No matter what brand or model you decide to stick to, choose the smallest possible CL-number aka CAS latency."

So, please, help me understand, why these chips are inherently not 'decent'?

Thank You very much kind sir.

Well, it's not fiddling with it day and night. You solved your problem by throwing loads of cash at a very high-end set of memory sticks. I'm solving my problems in a much cheaper way and making myself more knowledgeable in the process. I get my rocks off in life by "knowing" how things work. You aren't the knowledgeable chap about memory sticks that I thought you were in the beginning.

How much did you pay for your kit of FlareX? It's currently selling for over $200.00 on NewEgg. Double what I paid. Life for me is a learning process from beginning to end. I'm in no hurry right now.

The "SELL, SELL, SELL" was in quotes to highlight your responses as exaggerated solutions to a problem which might be solved much cheaper and easier through knowledge versus money.

35 years as a PC hardware geek have learned me several things. One of the things I have learned is that going for high end to "future prof" is a bad investment -rather get middle end every 2 year than high end every 4. year. 

winwiz youve added three comments to this thread

how about you actually post some help to the guy

all your posts surely cant be negative/disagreemental

I would like to say I appreciate everybody's participation in the the thread. It's okay if we all don't agree as long as we are expressing open and honest opinions. That's fine with me.

If memory prices keep falling then I may end up buying a newer and more compatible set for my Ryzen platform. But I'm patient and watching the market prices.

if cl14 is stable then i wouldnt be panicking that much about 2933 esp. if its at the cost of cl16 or higher

if you want to put much effort in after try getting some of the other timings down a bit

trrd and tfaw mindblank found to help increase game frame rates