Keyboard not available during boot, W10 upgrade

parsec wrote: While I understand why people try to use USB 3.0 ports for their keyboards (it will be faster is the idea), the reality is the data transfer rate of a keyboard is below the level of USB 2.0 bandwidth. I've seen modern, USB interface keyboard specs that say the interface is USB 1.1. The same is true for a mouse. IMO, if you want (more) dependable keyboard and mouse operation, use USB 2.0 ports.

I agree. I don't know what sort of bells and whistles you'd need on a keyboard for it to really need even an USB 2.0 port. My original choice of USB port was dictated by pure practicalities: the side panel USB ports are visible from where I sit when I use my computer.

Your Logitech K520 keyboard, given the Newegg reviews, is either loved or hated by its owners. The amount of contempt for it in those reviews implies that it can have problems, and is not simply user ignorance.

I noticed the same when I tried to look for a solution when Windows 8.1 was still exhibiting similar symptoms. As far as the keyboard goes, I've no big complaints. I'm sure a more expensive mechanical keyboard would be more pleasant to use if I typed or played games a lot more, but it still does the job it's supposed to and it was pretty cheap as well. If I remember correctly, it's the unified USB receiver that's given people the most grief. Some had sent it back and gotten a better unit back, but getting a good unit seemed to be down to pure luck. Getting a better, wired mouse to replace the one that came with the keyboard solved my issues with the receiver.

PetrolHead wrote: wardog wrote: And dare I ask, ...... Just what KB are we talking here? Logitech K520. I bought it for my Raspberry Pi originally, since it came with a mouse and the transmitter was supposed to handle both at the same time. However, the receiver is no good and using both mouse and keyboard results in lag, lost keystrokes etc. (both on RPI and my desktop computer). I'm not the only one who has had issues with Logitech's unified receiver, so it's more a quality issue than anything else. Using just the keyboard with the receiver works fine, though, as long as the transmitter isn't very far or hidden, which it isn't in my use case. Any drivers won't matter as they only load after the OS has has taken over. The BIOS itself doesn't "see' the drivers. It's only after Windows itself boots. Try the cable, it might not even need to be line of sight. I'm thinking RF interference is probably the cause. Had it here a couple of times that a cable did the trick, assuming that's what your up against. I doubt it's RF interference, since that should be purely hardware based and the issue seems to be related to Windows and it's shutdown sequence. The BIOS in turn must use some sort of drivers - generic or not - otherwise I wouldn't be able to use my mouse and keyboard in the BIOS menu. I already know from Windows 8.1 that Windows messes with the computer somehow during either boot or shutdown, since it removes the boot option for Ubuntu from the BIOS menu. What I'd like to know is why Windows 10 is now exhibiting the same symptoms that Windows 8.1 used to have, but got rid of through updates (either to BIOS or to Windows). The suggestion to switch to USB 2.0 ports gave results, by the way, and it seems to have resolved the issue - or at least given me a way around it. I also now have the USB receiver at the end of an extension cord so that I'm not hampered by the line-of-sight issue. It seems that at least the USB 3.0 header the front panel (side panel in my case) uses has stopped working properly after the Windows 10 upgrade. To be clear, the front panel USB ports worked with my keyboard when I had Windows 8.1 and they work with Linux. They also work with Windows 10 when I'm restarting the computer, but they stop working whenever I completely shut down the machine from Windows 10. There's something in the shutdown sequence of Windows 10 that messes with the motherboard's functionality. I haven't tested whether this is true for all USB 3.0 ports or just the ones that connect to the motherboard via a cable, but since they all use Etron's USB headers, my guess would that the issue also concerns the USB 3.0 ports at the back of the computer. I might experiment with installing the Windows 8.1 drivers for Etron, just to see whether it makes a difference.

While I understand why people try to use USB 3.0 ports for their keyboards (it will be faster is the idea), the reality is the data transfer rate of a keyboard is below the level of USB 2.0 bandwidth. I've seen modern, USB interface keyboard specs that say the interface is USB 1.1. The same is true for a mouse.

IMO, if you want (more) dependable keyboard and mouse operation, use USB 2.0 ports.

Has no one ever experienced the failure of a wired USB keyboard to function in a USB 2.0 port while using the UEFI UI with a new, fresh out of the box motherboard? I have, and had to use a PS2 keyboard in that situation. I could swear that also happens if I clear the UEFI/BIOS and remove the board's battery. Both of the above can happen with any mother board, new or old, in my experience. Wireless mouse operation in that situation is also not dependable. I've noticed that newer UEFI/BIOS updates applied to my boards have improved the ability to use USB keyboards in that situation, so their is more to it than simply loading drivers.

The idea that USB 3.0 ports will work properly before their driver is loaded by the OS, depends upon the mother board being used, and the USB 3.0 hardware. Newer boards are more likely to have functional USB 3.0 ports after POST completes, if the USB 3.0 hardware is provided by the board's main chipset (AMD or Intel), rather than a third party USB 3.0 chip.

For example, in the past when installing Windows from a USB flash drive, I could not use the USB 3.0 ports on the board's IO panel on an Intel Z77 chipset board, or use a USB 3.0 port for a UEFI update using Instant Flash. I can use a USB 3.0 port on the IO panel of my X99 and Z170 chipset boards, for an OS installation and Instant Flash UEFI update.

Windows 10 uses an "inbox" USB 3.0 driver, and no USB 3.0 drivers are offered in the Windows 10 download section of any mother board, as you know. How well this Win 10 USB 3.0 driver works with the Etron USB 3.0 chip seems to be what you are dealing with currently.

Your Logitech K520 keyboard, given the Newegg reviews, is either loved or hated by its owners. The amount of contempt for it in those reviews implies that it can have problems, and is not simply user ignorance.

Coming back to this with new thoughts ..........

Put the dongle in a native USB 2.0 port and try that.

Some BIOSs/KB combos just don't work properly unless they're in a native USB 2.0 port.


Edited by wardog - 01 Aug 2016 at 12:11pm

In short, what I had was a dual-boot system with:

-Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit
-Linux Mint 17.3 64-bit
-Logitech K520 wireless keyboard
-ASRock 970M Pro3, BIOS version 1.5

At the moment I have a dual-boot system with:

-Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
-Linux Mint 18 64-bit
-Logitech K520 wireless keyboard
-ASRock 970M Pro3, BIOS version 1.6

The problem I'm having is that every time I shut down the computer from Windows, the keyboard doesn't work during the following boot until after Linux - which is the OS my system defaults to in the grub menu - has booted. After Linux boots up, everything is back to normal and the keyboard works fine, but I can't do anything with the keyboard prior to that. This means that I'm unable to enter the BIOS menu or choose the OS I want to use from the grub menu. The interesting part of this problem is that booting the computer after using Linux - either by restarting or shutting down and then turning the computer back on - restores the functionality of the keyboard so that I can enter the BIOS menu as well as navigate in grub. Furthermore, this is also the case if I restart the machine from Windows instead of shutting it down.

This problem appeared right after I upgraded my Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. Updating BIOS didn't help and upgrading Linux had no effect either. I used to have the same problem with Windows 8.1 as well, but I guess updates to either Windows, BIOS or Linux eventually fixed it since I don't remember when it last happened prior to the upgrade. Now it happes every single time I shutdown from Windows.

I'm guessing shutting Windows down properly somehow messes with the drivers the BIOS uses during bootup before Windows' own drivers are loaded, but for the life of me I can't figure out why. So far I've done a few things in an effort to fix the issue (in addition to updating BIOS and Linux Mint). I don't have secure or fast boot enabled, I've disabled all the power saving features of Windows 10, I've tried to remove the keyboard from the device manager and reinstall it and I've tried updating it's drivers (already up to date). I haven't installed the "AMD all in 1 driver" from ASRock's site, as it seems to be a year old and I didn't have it installed on Windows 8.1 either. Also, I've yet to look at what happens during POST.

Anyone else experiencing the same?

P.S. Doing a clean install of Windows 10 is something I'll avoid as long as I can. My Windows 8.1 install was clean and still acted up. Also, if I remember correctly, clearing the CMOS didn't help then. That's also something I'd rather avoid until I upgrade my GPU.

P.P.S. The USB transmitter is now plugged to one of the side panel USB-slots. I could in principle try using the USB slots at the back of the computer to see if that helps, but the transmitter is a POS and needs to be in line of sight of the keyboard to work properly.


Edited by PetrolHead - 31 Jul 2016 at 1:07am