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Xaltar View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 9:29pm
Thanks for sharing your findings AlbinoRhino and Ken429

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people take review figures as being more significant than they really are. A reviewer will deliberately force the bottleneck onto the component being tested so it is possible to compare similar parts. This is almost never a reflection of real world use. Who is going to use a Pentium G4560 with a Titan XP for example? 

People need to stop reading/watching reviews and taking that information out of context. Most reviewers will state why they tested the way they did. I write reviews myself and have been working in the industry since the days of the 486 and this hasn't changed. Reviews show you a situation in which the product on review is pushed to it's limits and compared to it's competition under the same conditions. The odds that a casual user would even have the requisite hardware to do this are slim, add to that the specific settings needed and you will almost never see the same behavior in real world use. 

The other factor, especially with games, is how little difference even 20fps difference makes once you are talking 60+ fps, maybe 100+ fps with 100hz+ monitors today. The simple fact is, users will not notice the difference between 210fps and even 300fps. So when we see DDR4 3200 increasing gaming performance by 10-20fps (depending on title and settings) with a 1080ti or Titan XP when compared to DDR4 2133 it really isn't that significant. 

That said, Ryzen does benefit from faster RAM and that can be reasonably significant in certain situations making it worth it to spring for 2666 or better RAM. Once we pass 2666, barring good deals/rebates we enter diminishing returns. It makes absolutely no sense to get CL14 3200 RAM and pair it with an RX 460 or GTX 1050ti, get cheap RAM, overclock it as much as you can and pick up an RX 570 or GTX 1060. Now if you are going all out, then by all means have some fun with it and pick up the super fast RAM with the silly tight timings and have fun fine tuning and tweaking your system, this is the joy of being an enthusiast after all. 

Component choices are based on budget and the rules shift the higher up you go (budget wise).


Edited by Xaltar - 15 Jun 2017 at 9:30pm
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Ken429 View Drop Down
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So... there are Ryzen systems with 3200 or 3600 memory that are running above 2933. I am not a gamer. The only reason I built the Ryzen system was to run Handbrake and it does a fine job at that as I stated above. The one thing I did determine that going from 2133 to 2933 yielded a 2-3 percent performance improvement with Handbrake.

2133 to 2933=+800/2133=+37.5%
2933 to 3200=+267/2933=+9.1%
2933 to 3600=+667/2933=+22.7%

You're correct, going from 2933 to even 3600 if it were possible on the Ryzen 1700X CPU probably yields minimal Handbrake performance improvement, maybe 1 or 2 percent. But it's good to know that there are people running above 2933 with the right memory?

My system is normal at 2133. But at 2933 it takes and extra ~10 seconds to boot and the ASRock "Restart to UEFI" does not work, it boots right back to Windows. Do you have the same issues at 3200?


Edited by Ken429 - 15 Jun 2017 at 10:00pm
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AlbinoRhino View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Xaltar Xaltar wrote:

Anything past 2666 offers only a?negligible performance improvement. From 2933 to 3200 on my setup yields only about a 3 - 5 point boost to performance in Cinebench R15 and maybe 1 - 2 FPS in popular games like Rise of the Tomb Raider using low settings @720p on my GTX 960. As soon as I raise the settings to 1080p and high the difference is gone (GPU becomes the bottleneck).?

My setup:

Ryzen 5 1600x
16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3600 (<span style=": rgb43, 43, 43;">CMK16GX4M2B3600C18</span>) @3200 on defaults with XMP on
GTX 960 2gb

From what I have seen in my testing so far, you are better off saving money on the RAM and getting something like a 2666 kit and hoping to overclock it to 2933. A lot of people with 3200 and above kits are struggling to hit 3200 and beyond even with very expensive kits. Its a lot of effort for very little gain. Unless you are running a GTX 1080 or better and plan to game at 1080p @120hz or above you will not see a significant difference between 2666 and 3200+.

AGESA 1.0.0.6 has helped for some when it comes to reaching higher speeds but it isn't worth the money, headache and time in my opinion.?


I found this to be true as well. I paid far less for my CL16 Ram for basically the same performance as the CL14 that everyone is recommending for Ryzen.

I've been running 2933 since day 1 of my system build and with my 1700X the performance is superb.

Programs load quickly for productivity and gaming on my Ultrawide is all done at ultra graphics settings with no performance drops.

Edit: I have the GTX 1080 GPU.

Edited by AlbinoRhino - 15 Jun 2017 at 8:53pm
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Xaltar View Drop Down
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Points: 25043 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Xaltar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 8:35pm
Anything past 2666 offers only a negligible performance improvement. From 2933 to 3200 on my setup yields only about a 3 - 5 point boost to performance in Cinebench R15 and maybe 1 - 2 FPS in popular games like Rise of the Tomb Raider using low settings @720p on my GTX 960. As soon as I raise the settings to 1080p and high the difference is gone (GPU becomes the bottleneck). 

My setup:

Ryzen 5 1600x
16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3600 (CMK16GX4M2B3600C18) @3200 on defaults with XMP on
GTX 960 2gb

From what I have seen in my testing so far, you are better off saving money on the RAM and getting something like a 2666 kit and hoping to overclock it to 2933. A lot of people with 3200 and above kits are struggling to hit 3200 and beyond even with very expensive kits. Its a lot of effort for very little gain. Unless you are running a GTX 1080 or better and plan to game at 1080p @120hz or above you will not see a significant difference between 2666 and 3200+.

AGESA 1.0.0.6 has helped for some when it comes to reaching higher speeds but it isn't worth the money, headache and time in my opinion. 
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Ken429 View Drop Down
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datonyb,

I did not ask the question correctly. Will a Ryzen 1700X/Taichi M/B combination with Trident Z memory kit rated @ 3200 or 3600 run any faster than 2933?
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datonyb View Drop Down
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ken if you can find it the
tridentz
f4 c3200c15d-16gtz kits work on xmp 3200

but they are circa 150 bucks
and i doubt you would actually notice the difference in windows from 2933 speed
[url=https://valid.x86.fr/jpg250][/url]

3800X, powercolor reddevil vega64, gskill tridentz3866, taichix370, evga750watt gold
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Ken429 View Drop Down
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parsec,

I finally got my nerve up to try some other memory settings.

I tried 2400 versus the 2133 and the system hung on a BIOS code of "A6".

I then tried 3066 and the system would not boot and hung in a BIOS "OF" loop. I had to shut the system off, count to 10 and Clear CMOS to get it to boot. I left the VDDCR_SOC voltage set @ Auto. Based on A-Tuning System Information Display it said it's running @ 1.112V.

There used to be a list of the BIOS codes in the manual that came with the M/B. Apparently ASRock is trying to save a penny or two and left them out. Is there a place on the Web to download the codes for the X370 Taichi M/B?

I'm more that a little confused on why the system won't run @ 2400. I suppose I should take your suggestion and increase the SOC voltage to 1.2V but I'm not sure anything will help this thing since it seems to only want to run @ 2133 or 2933 settings. It must be the need to 33!! Maybe BIOS version 2.5 will help.

I tried upping the VDDCR_SOC voltage to your recommended 1.200V. Did that and A-Tuning says it at 1.208V. The system runs ok with added voltage and the Memory set to 2933. Went back into the BIOS and set the Memory to 3066 and the BIOS hung with an "OF" code. Had to Clear CMOS twice to get the system back. The first Clear BIOS hung with a code of "54". Sure would be nice to no what the codes are telling me!

All of this is going on with the EVGA 3000 CL15 memory. Seems like serious Ryzen users like the GSkill memory that uses Samsung chips. Should I give it a try or will I run into the same roadblock.

Edited by Ken429 - 15 Jun 2017 at 10:01pm
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Originally posted by Ken429 Ken429 wrote:

Installed BIOS Version 2.40 and cannot find anything that improved. Still takes ~19 seconds to boot and Restart to UEFI does not work. Can somebody give me a clue on what got better?

Are people using the GSkill Memory with the Samsung Chips having the same issue?

One other thing that is a little perplexing - the rated speed of the EVGA 3000 memory is supposed to be CL 15. Yet CPU-Z says it got changed to CL 16. Does that mean that the system does not like the memory @ CL 15?



The X370 Taichi has the AGESA 1.0.0.6 from AMD that was supposed to help with memory compatibility and speed. The results so far have been mixed, depending upon the memory being used, users report better, worse, or unchanged memory speeds and support. Some people got lucky, others not.

AGESA 1.0.0.6 brings more memory speed and timing options, and other rather unique Ryzen options that remain a mystery to me at this time. But all the options in the world don't help if we don't know what to do with them. For example, the ODT options are frustrating, since I've never seen an ODT spec for any model of memory.

My X370 Killer SLI/ac board, with 16GB of G.SKILL 3200 FlareX memory (made for Ryzen, Samsung chips) with a new, similar UEFI update, leaves me so far mostly unchanged in memory operation. I'm still at 2933 14 14 14 34 1T (which is not bad), but 3200 still won't work for me, POST fails. I tried the new 3066 speed at 16 16 16 36, but that has poor stability in Windows, browser tabs crashing but not the browser program entirely (never saw that before.) That is with the SOC voltage at 1.2V too. So yes, I have the same type of result.

Restart to UEFI is still failing for me too, when the memory is at 2933. That is strange since that program should be based on a Windows feature introduced in Windows 8, and I've never seen it fail on my many ASRock boards.

What got better may be a factor of our intervention in tuning memory options, so what I call auto-magic improvements (fixes with no effort on our part) again are a matter of luck.

If you set the timing(s) to 15 (not Auto) and it was changed to 16, then yes the system prefers 16. Or it became "trained" to that value. Relaxed timings can cause memory to work at slightly higher speeds. Ryzen does not support a speed of exactly 3000, does 2933 work for you? We do have a 3066 speed option now, I assume that fails for you? 3066 is a slight memory OC for your memory, so if many of us cannot get our memory to run at the rated (but still an OC relative to the Ryzen memory controller spec) OC speed, then a true memory OC will usually be more difficult.

For an experiment, you can try setting all the memory timings to Auto (system selected), and try 2933 or 3066. DRAM Voltage at 1.35V, SoC voltage at 1.2V.
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i too have cl15 ram and it changes the first setting to 16 no matter what i do
even back in bios it still has 15 written but in windows its cl16

if i set the all to 14 it will stay at 14

but then wont COLD boot at cl14
at 3200 cl15 xmp (all be it with one changed to 16) it boots fine and has done on all bios from 1.6 onwards
[url=https://valid.x86.fr/jpg250][/url]

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Ken429 View Drop Down
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Installed BIOS Version 2.40 and cannot find anything that improved. Still takes ~19 seconds to boot and Restart to UEFI does not work. Can somebody give me a clue on what got better?

Are people using the GSkill Memory with the Samsung Chips having the same issue?

One other thing that is a little perplexing - the rated speed of the EVGA 3000 memory is supposed to be CL 15. Yet CPU-Z says it got changed to CL 16. Does that mean that the system does not like the memory @ CL 15?



Edited by Ken429 - 11 Jun 2017 at 6:10pm
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