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netjrb View Drop Down
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Hi Guys,
I just got my replacement Extreme7 motherboard.  BIOS revision is 1.70.  Decided to stick with that revision and see what happened.  It is much more stable.  Which I guess could just be because of the older BIOS.  Don't get random hangs in Windows 10 anymore.  But, if I try using Samsung Magician the system hangs.
 
Parsec,
What BIOS revision do you recommend using with the Extreme7? 
 
Thanks,
netjrb
 
 
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Mushu View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Christer703 Christer703 wrote:

There is one other very strange thing about this. if i put the pc in sleep mode and wake it up right away i actually get full speeds. but when i restart the system or turn it off and on again i get the same slow speeds. samsung macigian still says im running in only 2.5Gbps after wakeup from sleep tho. This problem i can reproduce over and over again. 

Thank you Christer for sharing this piece of information.
I have now verified this exact behaviour on my z170 extreme4 board with bios 2.40.

To recap: after cold boot the m.2 seq speeds are low ~750mb, initiate sleep and wake the comp up immediately and the m.2 speeds are up considerably  ~1500(r) ~1200(w).

-M
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parsec View Drop Down
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Originally posted by netjrb netjrb wrote:

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:


Questions for those with this situation: Do you have any SATA drives connected to the Intel SATA ports? NOT that should make a difference, but just curious if that might be causing some strange interaction. That would include an Optical drive connected via SATA.

If you do, what SATA speed(s) are the drives you have rated for?

Hi Parsec,
This is what I was getting at in my last post.  The common factor seems to be M.2 paired with SATA drives in RAID mode.  I'm on an Extreme 7, but my config is this:

1 * Samsung 950 Pro 256gb(boot), M2_1 slot
2 * WD Red 3TB(RAID1 storage), rated for SATA 6.0Gb/s, SATA3_4 & SATA3_5 slots 
 


Thanks guys, interesting information. Thumbs Up

I'm reluctant to state that a RAID array of SATA drives is the cause of the apparent downshift in speed (a term used with SATA drives) in a PCIe SSDs, just yet. What if it is simply a SATA drive that causes this?

That could be a problem with the Z170 chipset itself, since we have reports of this on different boards now, right?

Also consider that there must be others besides you two that have a PCIe NVMe SSD and a RAID array of SATA drives connected to the Z170 chipset. Or simply SATA drives. I'm not aware of any other reports of your situation.

Many possibilities and unknowns, to early to come to conclusions IMO.

I have no SATA drives on my Z170 PC. It will take a little work to change that, which I'll do later today.

I'll of course let you know what happens.
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Mushu View Drop Down
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Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:


Questions for those with this situation: Do you have any SATA drives connected to the Intel SATA ports? NOT that should make a difference, but just curious if that might be causing some strange interaction. That would include an Optical drive connected via SATA.

If you do, what SATA speed(s) are the drives you have rated for?

My setup is similar to netjrb's

1* samsung SM951 m.2 nvme 256gb  (MZVPV256HDGL-00000),  Revision BXW7300Q
port: (M2_1), boot disk
2 * sandisk ultra ii 960gb (raid0), Revision X35510RL
ports: (SATA3_2 & SATA3_3), SATA transfer rate 6 Gb/s

-M


Edited by Mushu - 14 Feb 2016 at 9:48pm
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netjrb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:


Questions for those with this situation: Do you have any SATA drives connected to the Intel SATA ports? NOT that should make a difference, but just curious if that might be causing some strange interaction. That would include an Optical drive connected via SATA.

If you do, what SATA speed(s) are the drives you have rated for?

Hi Parsec,
This is what I was getting at in my last post.  The common factor seems to be M.2 paired with SATA drives in RAID mode.  I'm on an Extreme 7, but my config is this:

1 * Samsung 950 Pro 256gb(boot), M2_1 slot
2 * WD Red 3TB(RAID1 storage), rated for SATA 6.0Gb/s, SATA3_4 & SATA3_5 slots 
 
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parsec View Drop Down
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It's starting to sound like at least one UEFI version for the Z170 Extreme4 may have problems. I say may only because I don't have this board and can't confirm that myself. With two users saying the same thing when using 950 Pros, that worries me.

Quick tip about the Samsung Magician software, which I'm glad was mentioned by Christer703. You can see my 950 Pro runs at its normal speed in my AS SSD results. The Magician software lists my 950 Pro as running at 10Gbps, which seems to be reporting the speed of ONE of the four DMI3/PCIe 3.0 lanes, given a correct connection. This is what the Intel IRST Windows software reports for one 950 Pro:



Notice on the left side, the "PCIe Link Speed" of 4000MB/s. If you are using RAID mode, you can install this software and see what it reports your speed as. If you can do that, it might help prove your case about the UEFI issues.

I've used IRST version 14.5 myself, and it did not change the speed of my M.2 connection. You can try the latest version, but I can't tell you it will fix your problem. This is it, but scroll down to the SetupRST.zip file, which is the one you want.

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/25165/Intel-Rapid-Storage-Technology-Intel-RST-RAID-Driver

It is interesting that Christer703 said the Magician software listed his 950 as running at 2.5GBps. Plus the change in speed waking from Sleep. That is good evidence that for some reason the bandwidth of the DMI3 lanes in the Z170 chipset is changing to a lower speed. It should stay at full speed all the time as far as I know.

Questions for those with this situation: Do you have any SATA drives connected to the Intel SATA ports? NOT that should make a difference, but just curious if that might be causing some strange interaction. That would include an Optical drive connected via SATA.

If you do, what SATA speed(s) are the drives you have rated for?

The Chinese Lunar New Year holiday started this week, so everyone in Taiwan is not working, including ASRock. So don't expect a quick reply from ASRock support for a while, sorry to say.


Edited by parsec - 12 Feb 2016 at 1:41pm
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netjrb View Drop Down
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Hi Parsec,
Thanks for the info. 
Please see response to questions below.

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
Recently I bought another 950 Pro to try them in RAID 0 as the OS drive. That worked out fine too, I never had the problems you have with the "hang" or system freezing I assume (IRST 14.8, with the 2.10 UEFI version installed, that has, "Update RAID ROM and EFI driver".

I'm using IRST 14.5.0.1081, downloaded from the ASRock website.  Sounds like I should be using a newer version.  Do you have a link to the latest?  
I upgraded the BIOS via internet update right after motherboard installation.  It updated to version 2.50, don't remember what the version was before the update.  Recently upgraded to BIOS 2.60, no difference in behavior.  Should I not be using the latest version?

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
I always install Windows with CSM Disabled, even with SATA SSDs. I want to use the EFI boot loader and fully use the UEFI firmware our boards have, rather than run it in emulated BIOS/Legacy mode, which happens when CSM is Enabled.

Whatever CSM setting(s) you used when you install Windows determine how it operates. I know you had to at least set Launch Storage OpROM policy to UEFI only. What happened when you set CSM to disabled?

I only change BIOS options before Windows installation, never after.  My last installation was with CSM disabled, didn't seem to help with the issues I'm having.

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
I installed the Samsung NVMe driver, which results in an entry under Storage Controllers in Device Manager. That means that the Intel IRST driver is not controlling the 950. The version 14 IRST software can control NVMe PCIe SSDs, but RAID must be enabled, and two or three 950 Pro's are in a RAID array. If you have the IRST Windows driver package installed, with the IRST Windows UI, you won't see the 950 Pro listed as a recognized drive for use in a RAID array, unless two or more are in the PC.

When you create a RAID array out of 950 Pros, the Samsung NVMe driver cannot see the SSDs, and won't install. That is trying the driver installation after the Win 10 installation. The Magician software can't handle RAID anyway, and only partially recognized the RAID 0 array of 950s. Pretty much like it does not completely recognize SM951s.b The IRST driver completely controls these SSDs when in a RAID array. I did not try installing the extracted files from the Samsung NVMe driver during the Load Driver phase of a Custom Install.

How did you install the Samsung NVMe driver?

Downloaded from Samsung website and installed after Windows 10 installation.   Was able to run Samsung Magician performance test on 950, before hanging caught up with me.

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
The RST PCIe Remapping option should only be enabled if you want to create and use a RAID array of PCIe SSDs. I never see those options appear in RAID mode until I have more than one 950 Pro connected to the board. Are you saying you see the Remapping option with one 950 Pro installed, and using RAID mode? I don't recall that happening. 

What version of IRST are you using. Please be more specific than just 14. There is 14.0..., 14.5..., 14.6..., 14.7... (never released officially), and 14.8....

If I leave the CSM options as "Legacy Only" and disable CSM, the RST PCIe Remapping option does not appear.
If I change CSM options to "UEFI Only" and then disable CSM,  the RST PCIe Remapping option appears. 

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
Did you check the Windows logs for any clues about your freezing/hang issue?

No haven't done that yet.  Will research how to do that and get back to you.

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
Wow, your 850 Pro works Ok on the ASMedia SATA ports? Shocked  I have all kinds of strange stuff happening with an 840 Pro on an ASMedia SATA port. Win 10 manual TRIM will not complete, that semi-hangs the TRIM function, I must kill the process in Task Manager. AS SSD will not run on my 840 Pro when using an ASMedia SATA port, it just fails immediately. I tried running the TRIMcheck program on the 840 Pro, the program never finishes the first step. Two strikes against TRIM with a SSD on the ASMedia ports, does that mean no TRIM support by ASMedia? What driver are you using for the ASMedia chips?

Which reminds me, the IRST driver, since version 11.6 I think it is, has had strange compatibility problems with the ASMedia chipset, and/or driver. I don't want to go into details here, but a simple thing to try is putting your 850 Pro on an Intel SATA port, since IMO that might be causing your issues.

Didn't make note of the ASMedia driver,  it's whatever Windows 10 chose to install.  Can't say the 850 was actually functional.  I was able to format it.  Could also see it in Samsung Magician.  I don't get a lot of operational time before the system starts to hang.  I did install Windows 10 on an old SATA drive.  Using that I was able to run AIDA64 Stress Test without issue, but I didn't have the 850 installed at the time.  Also was able to run Memtest overnight.  So CPU and memory look good.

I was planning on using the ASRock USB 3.1 front panel which leaves me with no available Intel SATA ports after I add my RAID drives.  I was counting on using the ASMedia port for my 850.  Going to be bummed if that won't work.

Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Replying to netjrb:
What is it that makes you think RAID mode and the 950 Pro might cause your issues? 

Really just speculation.  Looking for what I might be doing different from everybody else who's had success.  I've seen lots of posts with people using M.2's as RAID drives.  Hadn't seen anyone before this with RAID mode enabled but only running a single M.2.
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Christer703 View Drop Down
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I have the z170 Extreme 4 board and having problems with my samsung 950 pro drive. i managed to install windows 10 on it without any troubles. however it is only stable with bios 2.80 and later. bios 2.40 i get freezing issues in windows randomly. tho with bios 2.40 i have full speeds on the samsung 950 pro disk. but i want it to be stable also so i have bios 2,90 now. with this bios the the bootup is much wuicker and the pc is 100% stable, however i get only half the speed on the m2 disk. (850read/750write). 
samsung magician tels me with the bios 2.40 my PCIe link speed is 10Gbps, and now with the 2.90 bios the speed is 2.5Gbps. Crystaldisk info confirms this because there it says i am running the ultra m2 slot in PCIe 1.0 mode. how can i fix this?

There is one other very strange thing about this. if i put the pc in sleep mode and wake it up right away i actually get full speeds. but when i restart the system or turn it off and on again i get the same slow speeds. samsung macigian still says im running in only 2.5Gbps after wakeup from sleep tho. This problem i can reproduce over and over again. 

Programs i have used for testing these speeds are as ssd benchmark, samsung magician, crystaldisk mark, anvilbenchmark, aida 64 extreme. 

i also have the samsung nvme 1.1 driver installed. do i have to delete or remove old windows nvme driver???
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  • "Does your board's UEFI, in the Chipset Configuration screen, any of these options:

    PCI DMI ASPM Support
    PCH PCIE ASPM Support"
Yes, those are present as well as these two; "PCIE ASPM Support" and "DMI ASPM Support". All of those are at default value, i.e. disabled.
  • "Do you have an entry under Storage Controllers for a Samsung NVMe controller?"
Yes, I have under storage controllers an entry that reads: Samsung NVMe Controller.

  • "You mean the size of the font is larger on the ASRock splash screen?"
Indeed, I ment ASRock splash screen. (sorry, I was thinking my GPU which is from Asus when I wrote it).

Additional discovery with 2.40 bios, I have observed once that after a boot the SM951 NVMe ran at correct pcie 3.0 x4 (Seq Read speed ~1800M, Seq Write speed ~1200M). <- this is similar to result obtained consistently with 2.90 bios (which is unstable for me).  Next boot returned the situation back to pcie 2.0, there were no changes to uefi or drivers between boots.

*One more thing is that Aida64 indicates that PCIE2 link speed (used by GPU) is at pcie 2.0 x 16, not sure if helpful.

**Other thing is that the z170 extreme4 online manual indicates that PCIE6 Link Speed should be selectable by the user under Chipset Configuration.(Could it be the link the M.2 uses?)
PCIE6 Link Speed
 Select the link speed for PCIE6. 
However, there is no such entry in the uefi. (only selection for PCIE2 and PCIE4, tried to set both to pcie 3.0 which had no effect on M.2)
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parsec View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mushu Mushu wrote:

Hi,

@netjrb, Thanks for posting and confirming that you have similar problems.

@parsec, Thank you for taking the time to help out.

I'll try to answer your questions to my best ability.

  • "First, how do you know your NVMe SM951 is running at PCIe 2.0 x4? What is telling you that? If that is the Samsung Magician software, then it is wrong."
I use Aida64 for that information, additionally CrystalMark and ASS SSD benchmark both show transfer speeds that support the fact that only pcie 2.0 x4 is used, i.e. R: ~750M W:~750M.


Does your board's UEFI, in the Chipset Configuration screen, any of these options:

PCI DMI ASPM Support
PCH PCIE ASPM Support
If so, if either of these are Enabled, that could cause the issue. Those are power saving options for the PCH.
Otherwise, the 750MB/s write looks like the Win 10 driver is in use. But you say you installed the Samsung NVMe driver. Do you have an entry under Storage Controllers for a Samsung NVMe controller?

This is what one 256GB 950 Pro does in AS SSD on my board, while running Windows:



Originally posted by Mushu Mushu wrote:

  • "Each Ultra M.2 port (PCIe 3.0 x4) in an ASRock Z170 board shares resources with two SATA III ports. You may use either one Ultra M.2 (I'll call it U-M.2) port, or two SATA III ports. The U-M.2 port has precedence."
Yes, I have connected the "normal" SSD drives to ports that are not shared with the M.2.
  • "With CSM set to Disabled, the three CSM options we see when CSM is Enabled are all set to UEFI Only, or should be. ASRock has has the CSM option work this way since my Z77 Extreme4 board's UEFI. In theory there could be a bug in any board's UEFI, but I've never seen it with any of my ASRock boards."
Ok, easiest way to reproduce it on my board is to set the "Video OpROM Policy" to legacy only and then disabling CSM. Then it can be observed that during boot up the visual appearance of the load screens (not windows but Asus's) differs from the uefi only setting being active under CSM before disabling the CSM. Thus, I would reason the setting does not default to uefi only when CSM is disabled.


You mean the size of the font is larger on the ASRock splash screen? I would agree that seems to indicate that the Video OpROM Policy setting is taking precedence over setting CSM to Disabled. That sounds like a bug IMO, unless someone could explain why allowing a setting set to Legacy only with CSM Enabled is carried over when CSM is Disabled. That seemingly defeats the purpose of disabling CSM. Or does that allow a non-GOP compatible Legacy video source to be used with all the other UEFI option enabled.
Originally posted by Mushu Mushu wrote:

  • "The speed of your NVMe SM951 is at the mercy of the Windows 10 NVMe driver, unless you can force install the Samsung NVMe driver supplied for the 950 Pro. The Win 10 NVMe driver is known to have performance problems with the NVMe SM951, mainly with write performance, sorry to say."
Agreed, I too have observed and read about the poor performance of Windows default driver, thus I use the Samsung NVMe driver.

  • "CSM cannot be Disabled if you installed Windows with CSM Enabled and the other options left on Legacy. That is just a reality."
Yes, I figured that those are not changeable after install. I am installing with CSM enabled and all policies set to Uefi Only (this works ok in 2.40 but other bioses are unstable).
  • "The only advice I can give you about the freezing UEFI is if you are setting the BCLK to anything but AUTO, that seems to cause the freezing, at least with some versions of my Z170 board."
Thanks for the tip, I use (and have used) AUTO for it.


My Uefi setup steps are below: (for 2.40 bios only, newer ones are unstable)
Clear CMOS
Load Default settings (boot)
set XMP memory profile (3200MHz, 16-16-16-36-2N)
set serial port to disabled
set fan-tastic profile to custom (lower rpms) (note. system runs very cool, no overheat possibility)
set sata mode to RAID
change SSDs to solid state (as opposed to default hdd mode)
set M2_1/SATA3_0_1, SATA_EXP0 Switch to force M2_1 or leave it to AUTO
set CSM OPROM policies to Uefi Only, leave CSM enabled
set fast boot active (or leave disabled, either works)

My board does not have any of the Force M2 options shown, unless that only happens when SATA drives are connected to the SATA ports shared with an M.2 slot.

 
Originally posted by Mushu Mushu wrote:

@anyone who is experiencing similar issues feel free to post them here and if you have workarounds please share.

-M
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