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Taichi BIOS V3.10 Strange Happenings
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Ken429 View Drop Down
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Ok, so I exaggerated the time a little bit! This time when I update the BIOS from 3.00 to 3.20 I'll make sure I've documented exactly what V3.00 was doing - Max Core Temp when running IBT for 10 passes increased ~3C under 3.10, Core 8 never dropping to 2200 MHz when running the AMD Master Ryzen program under 3.10, the Vcore increasing by 0.40 (both Idle and under load) when Global C State was Enabled in 3.100 - it does not do that in 3.00.

I agree that the Vcore dropping to 0.368V when idle is probably not an issue BUT Pstate2 was set to 0.900.

Maybe I was wrong but under 3.00 the system only took ~10 seconds to do a cold boot to the first BIOS splash screen with memory set to XMP. Under 3.10 it took 20+ seconds. When I went back to 3.00 it took 20+ seconds to do the same thing!! Now When I go back to the default memory setting instead of the XMP setting it takes ~10 seconds. Maybe just maybe I thought I was running 3.00 with XMP set and was getting the ~10 second boot to BIOS splash screen and I was running with the default memory setting but I don't think so. That's why I said 2 hours to go back, I don't think I ever got there!! This thing has a mind of it's own.

Anyway thanks for the response - other than the minor stuff above my system runs great and I'm generally very happy.
X470 Taichi, 3800X (BIOS Defaults), BIOS v3.60, Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB, 2 crucial MX500 1TB, G.Skill 2X 2X8 3200-14, EVGA 1660Ti SC, EVGA 750 G3, W10 1903
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datonyb View Drop Down
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a guy posted today that when he upgraded to bios 3.1 on taichi boot times went very long
he reset back to v3 and then flashed v3.1 again from usb

boot times are now identical


personally on my taichi i think the boot times are swift
with my flavour of pstate tuning (which is locked 3.9 and 1.3 volts) all c&q and c6 off
version 3.1 has bought unexpected down volting according to cpuz to the half a volt area
i dont even know why its downvolting now with same setting as v3 when it would stay rigid at 1.3 volts at all times
[url=https://valid.x86.fr/jpg250][/url]

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Ken429 View Drop Down
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datonyb,
parsec,

You made me try BIOS v3.20.

Like I said this thing has a mind of it's own. I Flashed the BIOS to 3.20 via the Internet and carefully changed the BIOS settings one at a time until I got to the "Final" Psate settings. Much to my surprise I'm back to where the system was under 3.00. It's running at 3.9GHz @ 1.35 Vcore with XMP settings turned on. The system boots to the first BIOS screen in ~10 seconds like it did under 3.00 before I flashed to 3.10!!

I don't know what magic is occurring but after 3.10 I could not get 3.00 to boot to the first BIOS screen in less that 20 seconds with XMP enabled.

datonyb,

I had this system running 3.9 @ 1.30V and thought it was very stable until I met Handbrake and tried making an MP4 file from a Blue Ray disk that was located on an SSD drive! Something about the input to Handbrake from the SSD caused the system to hang until I increased the Vcore to 1.35V.


Edited by Ken429 - 17 Sep 2017 at 6:28pm
X470 Taichi, 3800X (BIOS Defaults), BIOS v3.60, Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB, 2 crucial MX500 1TB, G.Skill 2X 2X8 3200-14, EVGA 1660Ti SC, EVGA 750 G3, W10 1903
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datonyb View Drop Down
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Points: 3139 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote datonyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 7:22pm
@ ken

yes i think i might have been lucky with my cpu
it does seem to be pretty good at low voltage
(whether this is anything to do with the early rumours that the plain 1700 was binned with lower voltage stability in mind i know not)

however it seems later cpu's (of which mine is not ) are getting reports of better stability with lower volts, of course this is never a sure bet as a 1600 r5 i was involved  two weeks ago demands nothing less than 1.35v @ 3.8ghz or it plays up

anyways im glad your finding latest bios ok ( i must confess for a real change this time i havnt tried 3.2 yet, im usually the first crash test dummy to try them)
[url=https://valid.x86.fr/jpg250][/url]

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Ken429 View Drop Down
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[URL=][/URL]parsec,

Can you shed some light on the CPU temps reported by AMD. BIOS version 3.10 and 3.20 give you the option to use different temps to control the (in my case) the radiator fans. Back on 3.00 it seemed to monitor the Tctl as reported by HWiNFO64. At least the Customize fans settings I was using worked close to what I would have expected.

Now, under BIOS V3.20 with the CPU Fan Temp Source set to Monitor CPU (as it was under 3.00) the fans never get to the max speed when running IBT.

When I change the CPU Fan Temp Source to Monitor Tctr1 the Radiator fans jump to the max RPM almost immediately when running IBT using the settings I had in 3.00.

As reported by HWiNFO64 when running IBT for 10 passes:

CPU AMD Ryzen 1700X
CPU (Tctl) 45.5C to 84C
CPU (Tdle) 25.5C to 64C
ASRock X370 Taichi
CPU 28.5C to 47.5C

It appears BIOS Monitor Tctr1 relates to the HWiNFo CPU (Tctl) and the BIOS Monitor CPU relates to the HWiNFO ASRock CPU? The most reasonable one appears to be the HWiNFO CPU (Tdle) but I don't think that is one of the temps monitored by the BIOS. I can't believe the 28.5C to 47.5C can be the CPU temp?


Edited by Ken429 - 17 Sep 2017 at 8:07pm
X470 Taichi, 3800X (BIOS Defaults), BIOS v3.60, Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB, 2 crucial MX500 1TB, G.Skill 2X 2X8 3200-14, EVGA 1660Ti SC, EVGA 750 G3, W10 1903
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nangu View Drop Down
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Ken,

Tdie is the real measured junction temp inside the AMD CPU. The Tctl temp reading is Tdie + 20° offset, as AMD describes. It was controversial why AMD added the 20°c offset to "X" versions of Ryzen CPUs. The 1700 non "X" as example, don't have this offset so Tdie = Tctl. AMD said they added the offset in order to allow better fan curve management, Personally I find it confusing and no real value to consumer.

Anyway, I recommend to use the Tctl in your case to drive fans, taking care the temp reading is 20°c higher than the real CPU temp, so adjust your curve accordingly.

The CPU reading relates to the thermal diode on the CPU socket, so it's a Socket temperature and not the reeal CPU temperature.
R7 1700 @3.90 1.25v - GSkill TridentZ 3200c16 Hynix MFR @2933 14-16-16-32 - Fatal1ty Gaming X370 K4 - Gigabyte GTX 1070 G1 - WD 256 Black M2 Nvme as Windows 10 boot drive - EVGA Gold 650W
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Thanks for the response, Looks like Tctl (in HWiNFO language) = Tctr1 in (ASRock language)! Anyway, setting the CPU Fan1 Temp Source to Monitor Tctr1 works as advertised. Funny though there is no mention of Tctr1 in the Fan tuning section of the BIOS but it looks like it is using the Tctl or Tctr1 for the Fan1 graph but call it Monitor CPU!

Edited by Ken429 - 18 Sep 2017 at 4:13am
X470 Taichi, 3800X (BIOS Defaults), BIOS v3.60, Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB, 2 crucial MX500 1TB, G.Skill 2X 2X8 3200-14, EVGA 1660Ti SC, EVGA 750 G3, W10 1903
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parsec View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ken429 Ken429 wrote:

[URL=][/URL]parsec,

Can you shed some light on the CPU temps reported by AMD. BIOS version 3.10 and 3.20 give you the option to use different temps to control the (in my case) the radiator fans. Back on 3.00 it seemed to monitor the Tctl as reported by HWiNFO64. At least the Customize fans settings I was using worked close to what I would have expected.

Now, under BIOS V3.20 with the CPU Fan Temp Source set to Monitor CPU (as it was under 3.00) the fans never get to the max speed when running IBT.

When I change the CPU Fan Temp Source to Monitor Tctr1 the Radiator fans jump to the max RPM almost immediately when running IBT using the settings I had in 3.00.

As reported by HWiNFO64 when running IBT for 10 passes:

CPU AMD Ryzen 1700X
CPU (Tctl) 45.5C to 84C
CPU (Tdle) 25.5C to 64C
ASRock X370 Taichi
CPU 28.5C to 47.5C

It appears BIOS Monitor Tctr1 relates to the HWiNFo CPU (Tctl) and the BIOS Monitor CPU relates to the HWiNFO ASRock CPU? The most reasonable one appears to be the HWiNFO CPU (Tdle) but I don't think that is one of the temps monitored by the BIOS. I can't believe the 28.5C to 47.5C can be the CPU temp?


Sorry, had to work today, started this post earlier, and only finished it now.

Tdie and Tctrl are AMD terms for the Ryzen CPU temperature. Tctrl = Tdie + 20° C. Or put another way, Tctrl has a +20° C offset from Tdie. You can see that perfectly in the HWiNFO readings.

The ASRock "CPU Temperature" seems to be similar to the AMD CPU socket temperature, used on earlier AMD platforms. That's the best I can tell you about it. It changes very little and has a small range of temperatures. This temperature was used in all the early ASRock Ryzen boards. Recently it was changed to Tctrl, and now with the latest Ryzen UEFI updates, we can choose between the two. The ASRock CPU Temperature is the default setting.

So which one is correct? AMD said Tctrl is used to control the CPU cooler's speed on some Ryzen processors. Not clear at all, is it? Is that the stock AMD Ryzen CPU coolers, or after market coolers? If it only applies to some Ryzen processors, then which ones? We need to ask AMD which of these two temperatures is correct, since I have never seen that identified in a Ryzen processor review.

I have a 1700X too, and would like to believe that Tdie is the correct Ryzen processor temperature. Do I know with certainty it is? No. A post above said it is, great, but just show me where AMD said that. Why ASRock chose Tctrl as an option for the fan speed monitoring temperature, instead of Tdie, I don't know.

The ASRock utilities like A-Tuning and F-Stream use the ASRock CPU Temperature for fan speed control, and in the latest Ryzen board UEFI updates, that is what "CPU Temperature" is. Just before your board's 3.10, ASRock changed from the ASRock CPU Temperature, to Tctrl.

ASRock Ryzen users have complained about the use of both the ASRock CPU Temperature, and Tctrl. Users that don't like the constant fan speed changes don't like Tctrl. Users that care about the actual CPU temperature being too high don't like the ASRock CPU Temperature. Using Tctrl can be fine if you configure a custom fan speed curve to match your fans and your tolerance for fan noise. The built in fan speed profiles will only satisfy you by pure chance, since all PC fans are different in their characteristics.

If you don't see the Tctrl option, which is not in the FANTastic Tuning screen in the UEFI, you need to check the individual fan speed configuration options in HW Monitoring screen. We now have "CPU Temperature", Tctrl, and Mother board temperature as the three options. At least that is what I have in UEFI version 3.20 for the X370 Killer SLI/ac board. I doubt that the X370 Taichi version 3.10 and 3.20 is any different.
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Ken429 View Drop Down
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parsec,

Thanks for the information, what got me going was the change from 3.00 to 3.20. ASRock decided to change to the Temp source for CPU.

Good thing I got EK-Vardar F2 140 (1600) fans on the radiator. Even at full speed when using Tctr1 as the source in the BIOS they are not too noisy. However they do get to the max speed almost immediately when running IBT but then that's probably OK.

I did try the "Standard" setting in the BIOS and the fans ran slower and quieter when running IBT but the Temp according to what HWiNFO reported was ~3C higher.

I've played with the settings in the BIOS based on the higher temps being used as the source and got the fan speed back to something less than full speed when running IBT as they were under 3.00 which had little or no effect on the HWiNFO reported temps.
X470 Taichi, 3800X (BIOS Defaults), BIOS v3.60, Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB, 2 crucial MX500 1TB, G.Skill 2X 2X8 3200-14, EVGA 1660Ti SC, EVGA 750 G3, W10 1903
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Originally posted by parsec parsec wrote:

Sorry, had to work today, started this post earlier, and only finished it now.

Tdie and Tctrl are AMD terms for the Ryzen CPU temperature. Tctrl = Tdie + 20° C. Or put another way, Tctrl has a +20° C offset from Tdie. You can see that perfectly in the HWiNFO readings.

The ASRock "CPU Temperature" seems to be similar to the AMD CPU socket temperature, used on earlier AMD platforms. That's the best I can tell you about it. It changes very little and has a small range of temperatures. This temperature was used in all the early ASRock Ryzen boards. Recently it was changed to Tctrl, and now with the latest Ryzen UEFI updates, we can choose between the two. The ASRock CPU Temperature is the default setting.

So which one is correct? AMD said Tctrl is used to control the CPU cooler's speed on some Ryzen processors. Not clear at all, is it? Is that the stock AMD Ryzen CPU coolers, or after market coolers? If it only applies to some Ryzen processors, then which ones? We need to ask AMD which of these two temperatures is correct, since I have never seen that identified in a Ryzen processor review.

I have a 1700X too, and would like to believe that Tdie is the correct Ryzen processor temperature. Do I know with certainty it is? No. A post above said it is, great, but just show me where AMD said that. Why ASRock chose Tctrl as an option for the fan speed monitoring temperature, instead of Tdie, I don't know.

The ASRock utilities like A-Tuning and F-Stream use the ASRock CPU Temperature for fan speed control, and in the latest Ryzen board UEFI updates, that is what "CPU Temperature" is. Just before your board's 3.10, ASRock changed from the ASRock CPU Temperature, to Tctrl.

ASRock Ryzen users have complained about the use of both the ASRock CPU Temperature, and Tctrl. Users that don't like the constant fan speed changes don't like Tctrl. Users that care about the actual CPU temperature being too high don't like the ASRock CPU Temperature. Using Tctrl can be fine if you configure a custom fan speed curve to match your fans and your tolerance for fan noise. The built in fan speed profiles will only satisfy you by pure chance, since all PC fans are different in their characteristics.

If you don't see the Tctrl option, which is not in the FANTastic Tuning screen in the UEFI, you need to check the individual fan speed configuration options in HW Monitoring screen. We now have "CPU Temperature", Tctrl, and Mother board temperature as the three options. At least that is what I have in UEFI version 3.20 for the X370 Killer SLI/ac board. I doubt that the X370 Taichi version 3.10 and 3.20 is any different.




Here is where AMD said that:

https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2017/03/13/amd-ryzen-community-update

Cheers.
R7 1700 @3.90 1.25v - GSkill TridentZ 3200c16 Hynix MFR @2933 14-16-16-32 - Fatal1ty Gaming X370 K4 - Gigabyte GTX 1070 G1 - WD 256 Black M2 Nvme as Windows 10 boot drive - EVGA Gold 650W
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