ASRock.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Technical Support > AMD Motherboards
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - X370 Killer SLI huge volt. drop, impossible to OC
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search Search  Events   Register Register  Login Login

X370 Killer SLI huge volt. drop, impossible to OC

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
datonyb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Location: London U.K.
Status: Offline
Points: 3139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote datonyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 11:08pm
the trouble is ..............

despite many claims of 4ghz stable overclocks, there are only a few

hitting 4ghz and booting windows and completing cinebench isnt a stable overclock
sitting at 4ghz for 24hrs of prime would be considered stable

not a lot of ryzens would be able to do this even on flagship boards

dont believe me ? go read the crosshair6 overclocking thread on overclockers..............

hitting 3.9 stable increases the odds by an extreme amount, also note the very high amount of people reporting such a massive increase in volts to get that extra 100mhz

personally i think in agreement that the lack of llc may be a big factor in your case,but if you havnt got the option, then you dont have that option
[url=https://valid.x86.fr/jpg250][/url]

3800X, powercolor reddevil vega64, gskill tridentz3866, taichix370, evga750watt gold
Back to Top
zlobster View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zlobster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 11:23pm
4GHz is definitely possible. One should be extremely intimate with all the sub-timings and voltages, though. Just because many have luck and hit 4GHz with a simple voltage bump doesn't guarantee everyone will.

Another option is BCLK OC, which is a thing on its own.

Also, few stable benchmarks and stress test mean zilch. When I was beginning to step into the world of OC, I was often eluded that my OC are stable. Often the OC crumbles badly over only a specific workload. To claim some OC to be perfectly stable one needs to put the PC under vigorous testing for at least a few months. All the rest are fairy tales.


Edited by zlobster - 29 Dec 2017 at 11:25pm
1700X ZP-B1 (stock); X370 Taichi (UEFI 3.10); 16GB F4-3200C14-8GFX XMP; 256GB 960 EVO; RX 580 NITRO+ 8GB
Back to Top
chainsaw View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 05 May 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chainsaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 11:45pm
if you can exchange the MOBO for a launch Rev. you can get LLC. Sad that ASRock is removing features on new revisions. When we look up reviews about the mobo they are often from early in the release cycle. when asrock removes features as time goes on it really does a dis-service to the end users.
ASRock Fatal1ty X370 Gaming K4 P3.40
AMD RYZEN 7 1700 @ 4Ghz 1.39v
Noctua NH-D15 "blocks top 1x pci-e"
16GB GSkill Ripjaw V F4-3200C16D-16GVRB @ 2933 14-15-15-15 T1 1.365v
GTX 1080 x2 Sli
Back to Top
adsaidler View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 29 Dec 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote adsaidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 12:22am
Originally posted by chainsaw chainsaw wrote:

if you can exchange the MOBO for a launch Rev. you can get LLC. Sad that ASRock is removing features on new revisions. When we look up reviews about the mobo they are often from early in the release cycle. when asrock removes features as time goes on it really does a dis-service to the end users.

That is the problem. I feel extremely mislead.
Back to Top
adsaidler View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 29 Dec 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adsaidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 12:30am
Just running a successful 5-hour AIDA64 run. 3.9Ghz, 1.40v on Ryzen Master, with 1.32v under load, below 70c. Will try a 12hour Prime95 and 12h AIDA64 to assess stability.

The 0.07v drop is killing the overclockability past this point.

I'll wait for AsRock's support to respond; maybe enabling LLC on this version could be possible in newer BIOS versions. I remember someone saying it was not necessary due to VRMs being replaced, but no one said it was impossible.
Back to Top
Xaltar View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 May 2015
Location: Europe
Status: Online
Points: 22688
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xaltar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 2:40am
LLC settings are apparently not supported on the newer VRM controllers on Gaming X boards, I would tend to suspect the same may be true with newer revision Killer SLI boards by what you have written. From what I have seen these boards overclock virtually identically to previous gen boards (gaming K4/earlier Killer SLI). The impression I got from ASRock was that the setting was not necessary (and hence not supported) with these new controllers. I was not told this outright, much of the details of board specs and components is proprietary and not public knowledge (including us mods). 

I have the X370 Taichi and while I was initially able to get 4.05ghz stable it did not remain stable for long on my 1600x. I had to tune it down to 4.0 then eventually 3.9ghz for daily use. Ryzen CPUs do not seem to hit 4.0 and beyond as easily or as often as early reviews seem to indicate without pumping unsafe voltages into them. With a 240mm AIO on my system I find my CPU temps get a little too high with a vcore of anything over 1.395v, my VRMs also get hotter than I am comfortable with for 24/7 use.

If you are getting a lot of voltage droop, try positioning a fan over your VRM section for some extra cooling. VRM controllers are a lot more advanced these days and actually do throttle when overheated/loaded. My system has 2 140mm fans and 6 120mm fans installed with about a 40% to 60% exhaust to intake ratio. Just changing my fan profiles can improve stability at 4.0 on my system. I can technically run my system at 4.0 but temps are not what I consider ideal (I like my system fairly quiet). 

The Killer SLI, Gaming X and Pro series boards are not designed to give you maximum overclocking potential. Even my Gaming K4 can't live up to my Taichi. 3.9ghz is not a huge jump down from 4.0 anyway. I find gaming at 3.9 on my system is no different to 4.0 for example and the only place I see a more noteworthy performance increase is in synthetics like cinebench. 

Don't let the internet and "expected performance" figures ruin your enjoyment of your system. All too often it is easy to get caught up in getting X or Y overclock and A or B RAM speeds stable when the reality is, you won't even notice the difference between your overclocks vs the "ideal" 3200 and 4.0 everyone seems to think is somehow essential to even use the system..... I most often use my systems at stock after tinkering with OCs when the system is fresh and new. Once I have my benchmarks all buttoned down I just load defaults and enjoy my build. With Ryzen I do notice that 3.8+ seems to make a difference so I keep my build at 3.9 and my RAM at 3200 because it's stable there for me. Don't get caught up in the who's is bigger nonsense, enjoy what you purchased/built. Also bare in mind that AMD's AGESA is still evolving and will continue to do so, each update brings change, not always good it seems. Once AM4 is more mature things will settle and actual expected figures/OCs can be established. 
Back to Top
adsaidler View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 29 Dec 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adsaidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 8:08am
Originally posted by Xaltar Xaltar wrote:

LLC settings are apparently not supported on the newer VRM controllers on Gaming X boards, I would tend to suspect the same may be true with newer revision Killer SLI boards by what you have written. From what I have seen these boards overclock virtually identically to previous gen boards (gaming K4/earlier Killer SLI). The impression I got from ASRock was that the setting was not necessary (and hence not supported) with these new controllers. I was not told this outright, much of the details of board specs and components is proprietary and not public knowledge (including us mods). 

I have the X370 Taichi and while I was initially able to get 4.05ghz stable it did not remain stable for long on my 1600x. I had to tune it down to 4.0 then eventually 3.9ghz for daily use. Ryzen CPUs do not seem to hit 4.0 and beyond as easily or as often as early reviews seem to indicate without pumping unsafe voltages into them. With a 240mm AIO on my system I find my CPU temps get a little too high with a vcore of anything over 1.395v, my VRMs also get hotter than I am comfortable with for 24/7 use.

If you are getting a lot of voltage droop, try positioning a fan over your VRM section for some extra cooling. VRM controllers are a lot more advanced these days and actually do throttle when overheated/loaded. My system has 2 140mm fans and 6 120mm fans installed with about a 40% to 60% exhaust to intake ratio. Just changing my fan profiles can improve stability at 4.0 on my system. I can technically run my system at 4.0 but temps are not what I consider ideal (I like my system fairly quiet). 

The Killer SLI, Gaming X and Pro series boards are not designed to give you maximum overclocking potential. Even my Gaming K4 can't live up to my Taichi. 3.9ghz is not a huge jump down from 4.0 anyway. I find gaming at 3.9 on my system is no different to 4.0 for example and the only place I see a more noteworthy performance increase is in synthetics like cinebench. 

Don't let the internet and "expected performance" figures ruin your enjoyment of your system. All too often it is easy to get caught up in getting X or Y overclock and A or B RAM speeds stable when the reality is, you won't even notice the difference between your overclocks vs the "ideal" 3200 and 4.0 everyone seems to think is somehow essential to even use the system..... I most often use my systems at stock after tinkering with OCs when the system is fresh and new. Once I have my benchmarks all buttoned down I just load defaults and enjoy my build. With Ryzen I do notice that 3.8+ seems to make a difference so I keep my build at 3.9 and my RAM at 3200 because it's stable there for me. Don't get caught up in the who's is bigger nonsense, enjoy what you purchased/built. Also bare in mind that AMD's AGESA is still evolving and will continue to do so, each update brings change, not always good it seems. Once AM4 is more mature things will settle and actual expected figures/OCs can be established. 

Xaltar, thanks a lot for the comprehensive explanation!

Even though the VRMs do not reach more than 80 something degrees, I'll try cooling them to see if it helps with the vdroop!

Thanks for the heads up regarding letting high expectations ruin my enjoyment.. I was really frustrated, and started regretting building a new PC.

If anything changes by cooling the VRMs, I'll let you guys know!

Back to Top
adsaidler View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 29 Dec 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adsaidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 9:35am
Direct cooling the VRMs reduced the temperature by 15c, but it did not do a thing for the vdroop.

3.95Ghz seems stable enough at 1.4v, but I'm not sure it is worth it over 3.9Ghz at 1.35625v. 
More testing is needed.

An official response from AsRock regarding their plans regarding LLC on the new revison of the X370 Killer would be a welcome and consumer-friendly move.
Back to Top
Xaltar View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 May 2015
Location: Europe
Status: Online
Points: 22688
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xaltar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 5:06pm
I wouldn't hold your breath. Manufacturers (not just ASRock) usually keep their power design details under wraps. It is one of the largest determining factors when it comes to stability and overclocking, key elements when users select boards. 

I can say, if the newer revision Killer SLI boards utilize the same power design as the Gaming X then LLC will not be returned. It is physically not supported. However, if ASRock has chosen to use this design on another board (not just the Gaming X) then it has clearly passed their stringent in house testing and proven itself reliable for the segment it has been implemented for. Like I said, overclocking is not a selling point for boards in this range. The same is true of similarly priced boards from all manufacturers unless they have skimped in other areas to focus on overclocking. 

3.9 is perfectly acceptable with Ryzen, using something like a 1080ti the 100 mhz jump to 4.0 would only net you in the realms of 3 - 4fps at 1080p on high settings in most new AAA titles. Considering at this point you are well over 100fps anyway you are not going to even notice the difference. On a GTX 1080 or lower the difference would be practically non existent. Bare in mind that reviews are, by design, set up to force the bottleneck onto the component under review. In the case of a CPU this means GPU and RAM are maximized to increase workloads for the CPU. Unless you are using obscenely expensive GPU/s and RAM, you will not see the same benefits shown on a review system. 

Like I said before, the "whose is bigger" issue is a real problem today. Most reviewers do not outline the information I just did. Manufacturers sending them products want users to see the best possible performance that can be extracted not tell users that the lesser model is probably all you need. Some reviewers do break down value now which is a step in the right direction. 

The R7 1700 vs R7 1800x for example are physically identical save a few bits of code in the microcode changing frequencies and name (yes, the difference is in the firmware of the CPU, nowhere else). While in an ideal world the 1800x would be better binned and achieve higher clocks at lower voltages the reality is usually far from that. Demand will force higher binned chips to be branded with lower monikers, especially when manufacturing processes mature and defect rates are decreased. 

From my experience and reading many user accounts:

3.8ghz paired with a GTX 1080 is sufficient to get the most out of your system 
3.6ghz paired with a GTX 1070
Stock with anything less.

Also bare in mind this is for 1080p, as soon as you jump up to higher resolutions the GPU becomes the bottleneck in almost every instance. 

I think I did some stickies breaking this info down a while ago, I need to find them and update them again and maybe repost them in a few more sections. 

The only significant quirk of Ryzen is the RAM speed issue, it is not as severe as it has been made out to be but it is valid. Generally 2666 should be the go to speed for RAM on systems using a 1070 (or equivalent) or lower and 2933 for a GTX 1080 or higher. 3200 is neat but the tiny performance bump is not worth the additional cost vs an overclockable 2666 kit. 

Don't get caught up in getting specific figures, focus on the best balance of temps vs performance. Overclocking is about finding the balance between frequency and temps not breaking records and burning out your parts in half the time Wink Shooting for records or setting goals is not a game for the casual overclocker, a pro will go through a dozen motherboards, CPUs and GPUs for a record attempt. Many hardcore overclockers will purchase rebinned chips (tested by a 3rd party) that have been tested at high overclocks in store and cherry picked to deliver high clocks. These CPUs sell for hundreds of $$ more than the retail value. Stores like these will actually burn out a significant portion of the CPUs they test to find the golden silicon they then sell, the added cost is to cover this expense.

Honestly, the problem is how easy overclocking seems today with such simple options in the UEFI. Anyone can have a crack at it and sometimes you get lucky, after all, the CPUs sold for hundreds of $$ more still come from stores. Every casual overclocker dreams of getting one of these "lucky" chips or as the saying goes in the discipline "winning the silicon lottery". The term is quite apt Wink 


So, the TLDR:

Anything over 3.8 is a bonus and 3.8 should be enough to extract the most out of your GPU. If you want to challenge yourself and have some fun with your overclocking, try and see how low you can get your voltages at ~3.8/3.9 while still being stable. This is the most often overlooked conclusion of a proper overclocking session, finding the sweet spot for 24/7 use Wink


Edited by Xaltar - 30 Dec 2017 at 5:07pm
Back to Top
zlobster View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zlobster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 7:28pm
More so, 24/7 under 1.4V Vcore and your Ryzen will bite the dust within a few months (rough estimation Big smile).

What Xaltar said is 100% true - gains from 3.8-4.0GHz are marginal except for a few benchmarks. If your intention was to render or crunch 24/7 under extreme speeds, then I'm afraid you choose the wrong platform for this.

Invest more time in faster RAM, it works wonders for Ryzens.
1700X ZP-B1 (stock); X370 Taichi (UEFI 3.10); 16GB F4-3200C14-8GFX XMP; 256GB 960 EVO; RX 580 NITRO+ 8GB
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 7.750 seconds.